Does anyone garden with blackwater?

GOLDEN GURU says...
I use the 'goldwater' poor man's system.
Pee under a Papaya.
I am a dedicated distributor of the golden fountain.

Bread Butt says...
Do you mean Buttbread?
Bread and buttock?

Grant says...
Hi Amanda, I am a little disappointed in Biolytix that the supplier of the unit can't supply you with all the info you need.
I'm 99% sure that the water from these units can be used anywhwere on the garden and with a slight modification the water is drinking quality !
I have a friend that has all the info if you have any trouble

Julie says...
Hey Speeedy, tell us more about the fungi. What is it and where do you get it?

kert says...
There is much misinformed comment about black water ,some of it directed to encourage purchase of expensive "systems" What exactly are we afraid of? Germs? Think about what you and your partner get up to and then think if the same germs really will get you via the soil?? Viruses and bacteria are subject to dessication and U/V light, as we know. Sodium in powder detergents is a real problem and one needs to be mindful to use liquid detergents (less salt) and to be selective . There are league tables on the net quantifying salt content in detergents. Boron can become a problem . I do not worry about phosphate as toxicity in our depleted soils is v. unlikely.

Grant says...
Hi Amanda, Again I am disappointed in the information and apparent slow service from your Biolytix service rep.. I am considering one of these units for my 1 acre block as they don't require chlorine or as regular servicing. I would have thought they would be able to provide the information you desire in great detail :(

amanda says...
Hi Grant n Julie
not sure where u are Grant but only 1 rep in my town and the plumber is the hold-up (the come to service 2gether). I would still recommend them but there are other kinds on the market (aerobic) - maybe do some research - they are worth it!
Hi julie - not sure if u were aware but this is a total waste water treatment system (ie - our "septic tank" equivalent) I put fruit n veg scraps down the grinder to give them a treat now n again. Otherwise absolutely everything organic goes in my Gedys bins (meat included!) which are also innoculated with worms. My worm farm (the special one) lives on stable horse poo (and a bit of chook food - they go mad for it!)
I grow my worms to put in the garden - not so much for their poo etc - they survive really well.

amanda says...
Hi again Grant,
Thanks but - been there done that now I am going my own way - hence my question to the forum. I googled boron toxicity and the response nearly melted my brain!

In the wineries down south they use rose bushes as indicator plants (can't remember what for - aphids? wilt?) I don't do roses but I remember reading somewhere that they don't like alot of boron. Maybe there is a rose enthusiast amoung us?

Reclaimed sewerage water is a bit new in Oz - we may even be pioneers!?

Even Organic gardening Aust mag doesn't want to know about it.....

Speedy says...
Hi Amanda,
I dont water Avocados with biolytix water as yet I only moved onto this block around Jan 2007.
Not many trees and a lot of wind.
Avos later.
The water that goes into the biolytix is blackwater but when it comes out it's something different, unless of course the system 'crashes' like you described.
So I have to agree it is a misnomer to refer to it as blackwater.

And I am going to ask...How did you kill your worms?....so that we may learn more.

I also use gypsum to displace sodium from clay colloid.
Ultra fine lime(CaCO3) is handy for calcium even though we have high pH soils.
usually added to aerobic compost during cooldown say at 2nd or 3rd turn so as not to lose excess N if added earlier or too much.
I also use it in the gedye bins when I put fat, oil, meat or a big load of stuff in them.
I prefer it to dolomite, already too much Mg in soils here.
Magnesium has 1.4 times the effect on pH as Ca and the mushrooms dont like it so much.

Search around under mulch or logs and you'll find the mycelium of wood loving fungi growing. White fuzz or stringy looking growth on and knitting together woodchip, straw or whatever.
take some of it and put under your mulch and water it...not too much but rather keep moist.
apply extra mulch every year of the same or simmilar type to feed it and keep it happy.

The fungi is active in winter when we're most likely to get wet weather and there is a key compound in this fungi that is built around a phosphate molecule , so it scavenges P and holds it in a form that will be available to plants and wont be bound up in soil.
Also other minerals are distributed sideways in all directions through the mycelial mat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybe_subaeruginosa
Nothing new about the internet, fungi have been operating like internet for
millions of years, transfering info and nutrients between soil and plant,
plant to soil and plant to plant even diferent species of plants linked via fungi exchanging nutrients.

amanda says...
Thanks Speedy - you are very knowledgable! Are you a horticulturalist or something?

How I killed my worms...I can't be sure but it was one of 4 things:
- heat - the tank was uncovered in summer and it got scorchingly hot in full sun most of the day (my prefered option). It's covered now and the cover allows for a breezeway.
- I re-directed overflow from my rainwater tanks into both the inlet and outlet (holding tank) and possibly flooded it.
- I put liquid wetta-soil into the holding tank (The liquid one kills worms and I don't normally use it but it seemed like a good cheat at the time!) Perhaps the holding tank is not completely separated from the membrane above.
- I put meat down my insinkerator (this is Biolytix preferred reason) Meat gets munched up in my Gedys bin by worms - so I didn't think it would be a problem.

When we lifted the lid - it was putrid!! I was so dissapointed. Biolytix were great and sent another few Kg's of worms and it's fine now. I don't put too much down the grinder anymore - but also feel the scraps have more value used as compost etc. I am reticent to muck around with the tank anymore. Recently the whole family got wormed - so I hope they ok with that!?

When u say u have high pH soil - do u mean alkaline? Our soil has a deep limestone bedrock - so is calcerous alk. I have always been a bit careful with calcium additions so as not to induce iron chlorosis - is this correct?

Having said that - I have no problems with the citrus that grow in the Biolytix zone - they are beautiful without the need for any Fe n Zn corrections. The ones outside need alot more intervention. Mulching with pine bark (for 3 yrs) has nearly overcome the problem.

My orchard is 2yrs old and doing well. I intercrop with veg (above ground!) and they do well.

My line spacings are 1.5m/2m - I have 11 and the area about 300 sqm. I used wider line spacings because, like you, we have very strong winds - I prefer my trees to grow slowly but surely so they don't blow over! It takes a long time to get shelter belts up n running!?

I shall look for the fungi this winter - thanks so much for the tip and your time to reply.

Speedy says...
hi Amanda,
yes,high pH with calcareous layer in the soil starting at around 400mm to,in some places, as close as 100mm below surface.
It's as a result of marine sediment being blown east from the Great Aust. Bight during past ice ages when sea levels were much lower than today. There's also a bit Magnesium in it.
It arrived in the form of dust, was dissolved by rainwater, washed down into the soil where it cemented together forming pebble-like deposits in bands as described above.
And yes, I am careful with my use of it CaCO3 , more as a fertilizer type dose of it rather than to bash the pH around, and only where I've used compost or other OM.
I want to displace a some of the Magnesium, and remember that Mg as 1.4 times the neutralizing value of Calcium.
The best use of soil additives like lime or stone/rock flour or trace element salts, is combine it with compost so bacteria and fungi complex it while digesting OM.
Then it is many times more available to plants and less prone to leaching or being chemically 'locked up' in the soil.
more efficient.

There are no signs of lime-induced chlorosis but if there were, I'd use chelated Iron as a temporary fix and back it up with foliar feeding with kelp based products and add more compost to sort it out in the long term.

I have one of those can'o'worms round black poly worm farms and the worms died in that over summer even though they were in shade.
47.5degC for 2 days out of a week over 40degC was too much or them.
lucky fo me (by design actually) I have colonies of compost worms living in compost under mulch around trees that I can draw from.

The heat scenario sounds to be the most likely cause of death of worms.

amanda says...
Hi kath,
no - it was a pretty casual visit (but unexpected all the same and 1yr after it was up n running!). Ours was the first to be installed in our Shire and local area - so maybe they were curious also.

The condition of having it is that the retic stays under-ground - probably as it's 'secondarily' treated and not 'tertiary' (eg: have to use UV or chlorine for this) - so i think the inspector just had to 'tick the box'. The system is Health.dept approved in WA - so no dramas there. We even got a $500 rebate from them.

The water that comes out is crystal clear and doesn't smell at all (infact no smells from tank at all) I would be happy to use it above ground - but it's suits my conditions to leave it under anyway (it's not very deep - about 60cm). You just need to be aware that it's not tertiary treated and take commonsense precautions.

I am a convert and I honestly can't understand why they are not mandatory these days..?
They can be retro-fitted to existing septic taks too...just in case u ever win lotto!!

Speedy says...
If these type of systems were more widely used, better known and had more of a track record of use in this country, iI don't think septic tanks would be allowed to be installed.


They're certainly less risky (or stinky) than some of the dodgey greywater systems I've seen people use.

It seems silly to me to try to treat organic waste in water.

Instead, separate it from water, allow aerobic organisms (compost worms) to deal with solids and the water is treated by the resident bacteria as it moves down through the vermicast.

A brilliant application of natural processes.

amanda says...
Speedy - those mycelium don't grow around these parts - do u mean the trippy one's or something else?

amanda says...
Ta speedy - I think I will pass - they bust u for collecting them down there! I'll have to look for something local n legal. By the way - what's the pH in Biolytix zone? and how long have u had it going?

amanda says...
Speedy - checked out the site - there's no blue staining (therefore won't have half of Geraldton beating a path to my orchard...!) Thanks for your help - I learnt alot about mushrooms that I probably wouldn't have bothered to find out otherwise...(in-between sharing the computer with my 5yr old and her ABC-kids site!) I thought u might have been having a lend of me to start with!
I gather I just pick them and put them around the trees now?
I'm pretty sure they have come in on the sheep poo.

amanda says...
Yea - think you may be right speedy - it's hygrophaneous (great word!). Ah well - I shall just keep looking now that the rains in - I get field mushies so who knows.
Let me know if u ever pH test your soil in your biolytix zone - my sub-soil appears to going acid and I was curious to see if yours has changed - as u have alk soil too.

Speedy says...
pH is the negative logarithmic value of hydrogen ions (H+)in the soil.
In a strict sense it has nothing to do with lime or calcium needs of a soil.
It's a very common misunderstanding.
I'm not accusing you of that at all, but it helps to explain things.
You could adjust soil pH with cautic soda or hydrochloric acid but nothing good would come of that.
A soil could be neutral or basic and still need calcium.

Pure water is neutral. Expressed as H2O is in fact a balance of the same number of Hydroxyl ions (-OH) as hydrogen ions
(H+).
When H+ outnumber -OH the solution is acidic, or lower pH.
pH 6 indicates 10 times more H+ than pH 7; 100 times as many as pH 8 and so on.

A salt is the result of the reaction between an acid and a base. ie.the Hydrogen of the acid is replaced by a metal or other cation.


In the chemistry of soil the bases, Ca++, Mg++, K+, Na+ ( and NH4+ )
are cations (as expressed above) in solution in the water in the soil.
Trace elements Zn, Fe, Cu, Mn are in the soil are cations also.
Having a positive charge, they are attracted to and adsorbed to clay and humus particles.
The clay and humus having a negative charge.
Plant roots can ovecome these bonds via weak acids excreted and negative charges to take up the base nutients or TEs they need at the time by excanging them with H+ ions back to the humus or clay.

In drier climates water is a limiting factor in bioactivity within the soil.
Alkaline salts , salts of Alkali metals,K,Na, and Alkaline earth metals Ca,Mg, (ammonium is basic but not alkaline) tend to hang around in the soil and not be leached.
The over abundance of -OH and -CO3 tends to degrade OM in the soil.

With more water (within reason) comes more leaching of salts, also, more opportunity for more activity throughout the year.
More activity = more organic acids produced.
Also more bioactivity = more complexing of salts into organic compounds.

That's why I have the additions of compost and mulch with resident fungi in my Biolytix zone.

Humus, through the appropriate digestion of OM also buffers negative effects of salts comming from the house

So gradually the soil pH drops to relatively more acidic (less basic).

It's a big subject and I don't pretend to have all the answers, thats why I look to natural processes, cause nature knows does have lots of answers.

I dont feel that pH probes from garden centres and hardware shops are accurate enough.
If I had a limit of 25 bucks to spend I'd get a garden pH kit or pkt of colourpHast pH test strip papers.

I have a pH tester , abut $100-$180 or so from pool supplies- or maybe $45 or so from HK via Ebay.
Do a 1:1 soil:distilled water and test the water (though some people do 1:5)
Same goes for testing conductivity.

I also find this type of meter handy for formulating foliar feed sprays.

Sorry about the epic post :?

amanda says...
Gee - that was freaky - I was just adding to my last post when I got yours...bizarre.
Anyway - that was a very comprehensive answer thanks!
I guess I was a bit confused about the Mg thing b4 - but as excess Mg can produce Ca deficiency symptoms then yes extra calcium may be required. Mg deficiency is usually more likely in calcerous sandy soils tho' (or over K+ use)
I agree - it's all very complicated! and for me the answer is humus and it's buffering capacity - in which my soil is sadly lacking - but improving all the time.
I always find it interesting that people spend big sums of $ on chemical fertilisers when they may not have to - they just might need to 'tweak' things here n there, and then add loads of OM.

I have enjoyed your informative responses - I will have to think of a new topic now! ;-)

Amanda13 says...
Speedy! How do u know all this stuff!? How does the carbon source work? Iv'e never heard of that one..it's interesting to say the least. (I did chem 101 etc at uni so u can lay it on me! ..although I don't remember much these days.....)

Also - I don't use any chook poo at all because of the salinity issues - was thinking of free ranging chooks in the orchard (retic zone)..should I be careful of this?

As u can see from photos my orchard has not made spectacular growth in nearly 2 yrs (although they are a bit tatty at present) I put the windbreak up Dec08 - so I hoping that this plus a change in retic method might see it come right. But the u can see what I started with in 06' - maybe I need to be more patient!

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2	Picture: 3

Speedy says...
Amanda,
Your place looks great!
Not spectacular, to they untrained eye maybe, but I can see a lot of hard work has gone in there.
Looking good and only going to get better.
I could see how salt (spray) could be a constant challenge, but once the windbreak trees have grown a bit more, the more varied the species you could grow and easier.

The upside to the salt however is the proximity to a supply of fresh seafood!

The start is always the hardest and can sometimes seem like not much has been acheived.

Keep at it.

Carbon- I should say carbohydrates. Like us, soil microbes need them too.
Yet in cultivated soils they have the opposite problem with them that we do.
They can often benefit from a bit more.
Plant, produce more carbs than they use, this is to provide food for soil microbes via the roots.
The benefit to the microbes is paid back by unlocking minerals from the soil that the plants might not othewise be able to access.
Also they become the 'external immune system' for the plants protecting from pathogenic organisms.

re. the salt problem with chook poo....
I'd compost it.
Mixed with the right amount of fibrous or brown woody stuff to get C:N ratio right.
The minerals that form the salts will be metabolised by the compost microbes and then not be salts.
When applied to the soil the nutrients will be cycled between the different microbes within the soil and some taken into the plants.

A really good, easy, yet informative read.

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Home_Garden/Gardening/Organic/product_info/3730889/?cf=3&rid=583166564&i=1&keywords=teaming+with+microbes

http://www.soilfoodweb.com.au/

amanda says...
Hi again Speedy - the Soil Foodweb Institute site is great - thanks so much for putting me on to it! It is the link i having been missing...!

I hope I can keep asking u questions too though!?

I have access to vast amounts of seaweed here (infact it builds up so badly the shire gets trucks in to remove it) - the only trouble is that it contains alot of seagrass. I read alot of conflicting reports on this - some say too much boron in seagrass, others say too much salt in seaweed - have u come across anything definitive about it? It's a huge FREE source of biomass for me...i would like to be able to use it.

Also - now that the dust has settled on pathogens ;)...viral pathogens are very tough customers and able to survive extremes (including those that cause gastro eg; rotavirus...just check at your local swimming pool!) I put vegies etc down my Insinkerator (the grinder unit) but have always wondered if i could inadvertantly infect the orchard with a mosiac or wilt virus for eg. (from commercially grown tomatoes and spud etc) Do u have any thoughts on this?

I have often given my potted plants soda water - they really seem to like it - would this have been the CO2 in it? Also - the sugar and molasses would assist with nematode control too?

(PS - I didn't build the orchard windbreak...i designed it - but was just a tradie on that one...i'm not that good!)

Julie says...
amanda, we had a guy from the people who make Seasol talk to our organic growers meeting some years ago.

Apparently, there is no salt IN seaweed, though it could be coated in salt. So rinsing it off should be enough to remove any salt.

Julie says...
amanda, check out www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/humates re lignite.
You can get Nutritech products in WA, but don't know about the lignite.Worth a try.

Julie says...
sorry amanda, I haven't used it myself. Just thought the link might be useful. My soil is quite different to yours.

They have a huge range of products, but from memory they are helpful with advice if you contact them and explain your situation.

I used to write for Acres Australia, a sustainable agriculture, Q'land based paper sold nationally. Their name came up a lot.

Speedy says...
I think , from memory, Nutri-store 180 ?was a dry humate product they had many years ago.
Looking at their website I think you should probably look at the 'Life force home range'.
The products (names?) have changed a lot since I last bought from them.
But I think julie's on the money though, give them a call.

Email - just sent now

Speedy says...
When I put in the sub-surface irrigation I put in a tee joiner and a ball valve either side of it after it comes from the unit.
Just like to keep options open.
That way I can turn one on and one off depending on where I want to water.
Lawns front and back (sub-surface) or above ground via a 1" soft poly pipe.
Try my email,snappygecko at gmail dot com, I must have got yours wrong somehow
I'm gonna hti the sack now, whole family has had the flu for the past week.
I'm just comming good now but need rest.

Speedy says...
Yes,
it runs easily, probably less load on the pump that way than through the netafim.
I just let it run , I dont want to spray it at this stage.
I'd like to get a long piece of perforated ag-pipe to get better distribution.

amanda says...
Hi Speedy, was digging around in the mulch I laid 2 yrs and saw this - do u think it looks promising for innoculating the orchard?

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2

Speedy says...
Hard to say what it is without seeing fruiting bodies, but I reckon it's eating wood ,
turning it into soil, holding nutrient and doing all the other things that you want.
just keep feeding it mulch.
I always say "Best food for trees is dead trees" (digested by fungi).
Nobody puts fert on a natural forest to get it to grow.


I think Rev has put the fungi thing on hold, just for a while.
It's still worth a visit to his site for info on fungi -how to use and grow at home.
Click on 'Methods' or 'Species'
You can grow from mushrooms you buy in supermarkets.
http://www.funkyfungus.com/

You can buy kits or spawn and cultures from Will in Canberra.
http://www.forestfungi.com.au/index.htm

Julie says...
Speedy, I was actually after Amla seed, which they (Funky Fungus) said they would have after June 1st. Just happened to see the 'decomposers'.

They are having problems with the site - should be fixed soon.

amanda says...
Hey Speedy - how's this for serendipity...I went to see Julie Firth and found out Dr Elaine Ingham in Geraldton (of all places!!?) for a 2 day workshop next week!

I just need a back stage pass now.....!

amanda says...
Hi Speedy - I'm back!.... ;) - when you said about keeping your options open by splitting the retic areas - was that because of the nutrient load thru' the Biolytix?

I was quite shocked by what the output was when expressed in kg's/annum!? It's quite a lot isn't it?

amanda says...
I must admit, Speedy, I am having trouble getting my head around this - I will have to 'meditate' on it for awhile!?
I'm actually a bit annoyed with myself for planting citrus in the zone now (7 of them!) - pearls b4 swine ?...I should have saved the room for more of the tricky stuff that I love - like custard apples, jaboticabas etc.

This is why I think Biolytix needs to have a brief gardening manual to go with the system - what do u think?

Speedy says...
Well, I use a very technical method for determining te dilution of molasses in water as an additive to soluble ferts.
I stick my hand into the bucket of molassass and pull it out.
I then put my hand into the 10 or 15 litre bucket of water an wash the stuff off till my hand is clean... ;-)
I then mix fert to the rate for 10 or 15l til dissolved.
I then roughly half fill watering can or pump spray with fert/molasses mix and top up with water.
water (or spray)over plants.
Molasses works well as a sticker/spreader as well as food for microbes in soil and on leaves.

another thing about molasses is that it seems to work as a chelating agent.
Try soaking a rusty file or piece of steel into a mix of say 1:5 water/molasses for 2 days and rub it clean.
the rust seems to be converted (Ferrous to Ferric?) and chelated.....
and you have, left in the bucket....
Chelated Iron solution?
just needs diluting.
I haven't had a play with it yet to see if it helps overcome lime-induced chlorosis in plants,
but if it works it'd sure be a cheaper than $20 for a packet of Fe chelate from garden centres!
worth a try...

amanda says...
Hi Speedy - i was reading the exchange on Mangoes in the snow - the photos i put here of the fungi - they don't have any fruiting bodies - does that mean they are probly endomyco's? is it worth innoculating the gedys bin with them?

I get quite a few naturally occuring fungi's - field mushies, underground puff balls, horse-dung puff balls (cos' that's what they look like) - is this a sign that maybe the ex-farm land is recovering do u think? It's been fallow for at least 10 yrs.

amanda says...
Hey Speedy - haven't noticed it growing near eucalypts will be more observant next time... - it's a gross looking thing tho'! I adore shitake mushrooms but they are so expensive to buy fresh. Have u had any luck innoculating shop ones in anything (like your lawn) by any chance? Have u had any luck with any shop ones at all? We get some pretty interesting fresh ones in town now.

amanda says...
Hey Speedy - how r u doing the tissue culture?
You are pretty keen on your mushies hey???!! :)

amanda says...
It's ok Speedy - I used to do a lot of tissue culture work on placentae...that's a serious set-up u have!
I have often thought how easy it would be to make my own batches of Dipel using just nutrient agar. Bacillus very easy to grow and doesn't need an incubator generally.

amanda says...
Hi Speedy - I think those mushrooms above may be from the mycelium in the above pictures too... We have had about 1/4 of our ann rainfall in last week and those little mushrooms have sprouted up all thru that woodchip with the mycelia (no sheep manure there) - there are heaps of them!
I have made a big layered pile of woodchip with manure and lime all ready to start decomposing to put in the orchard in spring - I was going to innoculate it with these mushies too - do I use the fruiting body or the mycelia or both?

au0rey says...
Amanda, i saw similar whitish growth on my mulching which I kept in bags. Ehh..what good are they for? I thought they are pests for my garden.

au0rey says...
Hi Amanda, what is the white growth called? :)

amanda says...
Hey au0rey - this is what is growing from that mycelia...(at least i think so? - they are existing in the exact same spots..)

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

amanda says...
Hi au0rey - I was reading about 'fairy rings" too. Speedy - will normal eating mushies to this to lawn? I am probly not as wet/humid here.. my lawn Sir Walter buffaloe.

amanda says...
Speedy - aren't fairy ring formations bad for your lawn tho' ?

randey says...
hi guys, years ago i had one of those mushroom farms in a box and when it was depleted i scattered the compost onto my lawn. two years later with the first spring rains up they came, not so much an actual ring but two intersecting arcs and that was repeated every year for about 5 years. the grass at that time was kikuyu but have seen them appear in buffalo and couch. and hey who gives a damn what they look like they still taste beautiful.

randey says...
amazing the amount of goodies and nasties in the common lawn so one extra shouldn`t mess it up. if in doubt try it in a corner of the lawn and watch out for the faeries heh heh

Speedy says...
Maximize your mushroom kits by doing what Randey did, I've done thet too,
or even make up some compost for them and do a patch under fruit trees.

no worries about field mushies or 'cultivated' mushies being bad for your lawn.
There is going to be fungi there breking douwn the dead material from the grass anyway
so you might as well have a harvest of a yummy food.

randey says...
also keep in mind that the famous truffle is also a fungi that when applied to the host tree roots will over time spread to other hosts. now if i had this particular fungus growing in my backyard i would consider myself very lucky. there is currently a truffle festival happening , i think in mundaring

randey says...
i was listening to the abc the other day and they were talking about the introduction of kangaroo into china but were a bit worried about the fact that the closest translation of the word kangaroo in chinese is "very large rat". i grew up in aus and also love my native tucker. when i was young i had an aboriginal friend with whom i would go bush with and it was truly amazing what you could find where a european would starve.

Dekka says...
I think the moral of the story is, "grow soil not plants" The crops that grow in it are just a pleasant bi-product.

amanda says...
Yes - I agree - but I was thinking about what we add to our soils to make them more fertile... i was thinking about the woodchip that i put down 2 or so years ago (with a little manure 2) and how lovely the soil is becoming underneath as it breaks down ... maybe Speedy has a point about the 'dead trees' bit.

I have started a huge layered pile of wood chip (not old growth forest stuff! :) I layered it with some sheep poo, lime and urea (first time I've ever used that) I wet each layer and have left it. It's boiling inside now and starting to make something like potting mix! I am looking forward to seeing what the end product does...

amanda says...
I reckon the woodchip is great in sandy soils - everything else I use just seems to vanish.. the wood has good staying power. Gives me time to do other things.
I get mine from a tree lopping company - it's good value I thought at $220 for about 12-15 cubic metres (big truck load) delivered.

Julie says...
Sounds like you are basically making compost amanda. Well, that's how I used to make it (don't have the energy these days, as I have been unwell).

I pruned everything I owned and put it through a mulcher. Added Dynamic Lifter or chook manure and rock dust, watered it well, and ended up with a big pile.

Six months later, fab compost.

Jimmy says...
Yes, its dust. Most are not actually granite anyway, mostly diorite. Doen bunbury way its basalt.

Just call it bluemetal and evrybody is happy.

David says...
Hi Amanda
I read your question and thought the following info may help, the treatment system that you have produces a class B or high class secondary effluent, the end user details and requirements will be in the soil test and treatment design pack that had to be supplied to you and the local council before the installation of the treatment plant based on AS 1546 & AS 1547 2000 and the State’s Water ACT, the set back distances from buildings and water courses and class of the end discharged wastes base on BOD(5)-E, co and S/solids F/coliforms levels . If I was designing and installing this unit in Qld I would design for sub-surface irrigation only and not recommend for the application to food cropping plants the local council would be able to inform you of the classes of effluent allowed for food crops in your State/

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

bonnie says...
Thanks Amanda, please keep in touch with more about the Biolytix. We have been using ours since mid 2009 also also after the Biolytix was featured on new inventors. I'm blown away by the things we have been able to grow over the hottest dryest summer weather. I have not improved the soil, or mulched anything. Just seedlings or seeds straight into sand. I'm amazed when at the end of a 38C day my seedlings are still standing. I've planted citrus and a lychee, and like you, I under plant with vegies (watermelon, rockmelon, tomatoes, cucumber, broccoli, corn, asparagus, passionfruit, and just recently bananas.
Our soil is clay and I have been careful to use soil friendly products for anything going down the drain. We are about to go into winter so we'll see how everything goes with a bit of excess rain.

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

bonnie says...
Hi Amanda, I've been thinking about getting an insinkerator, is there any foods that shouldn't be fed into the Biolytix (other than bones and hard stuff)?
Also with the Biolytix, do you have any really wet areas? The area closest to the Biolytix is very wet(I've planted bananas and thirsty plants). I've planted fruit trees further away from the unit and they seem to be getting alot less water. Is your system like this?

Mark says...
Hi Amanda, > From what I have seen it is unnecessary to use any treatment system at all. There are a few ways of doing this with No Stink & No Treatment. .... 1/ You can install your own irrigation hoses beneath the ground & connected to your septic tank. You will also have to connect your own pump. As the septic tank contents become mostly liquid & over half full, you just turn your pump on for a while to lower the level. Next time you are eating fruit grown in Mildura... need I say more?! ...... 2/ In dryer places like South Australia where there is only tank water & none to spare for the plants, Some people in SA resort to watering from their septic tank. ... This way is done more with a gravity feed so it relies on the hose being lower than the liquid in the tank. If your septic tank is buried higher than the plants you wish to 'water', you can get away with just turning on a tap on the septic tank & letting gravity do the rest. Otherwise, you will need to install a Pump to pump out the fluid. Either way, just remember to put a peg on your nose as it WILL Stink! Then, all you do is spare a little of your tank water to give it a drink & at the same time this will water down your home made natural fertilizer!! ....... IMPORTANT NOTE:: Just Remember that once it starts to get thicker than water, it is Too Raw for your plants & you run the risk of Damaging your Pump & System! .... One more thing. Last time I checked, this was NOT Legal to do! (it stil gets done though.)

amanda says...
Hi Kurt, if you google "groundwater contamination by septic systems" you will find all the evidence you need.

kert says...
Googling "groundwater contamination" prejudices the outcome ;of course you will get adverse findings . The point is that in many situations low volumes of septic DO NOT contaminate groundwater.Further where is the evidence for adverse health outcomes ?

Brad says...
Actually Kert, anyone on the forum can suggest deleting... its not big brother doing it, when it happens to some of your messages, its the community.

amanda says...
Whatever...

Charles cant spell says...
Kert,
Your anonymous, I haven't seen you make any useful comments since I joined, you have no my edibles page, you are quick to judge, so I would not be casting any character judgements if I had that forum profile. You can just leave and get on with whatever quality of life you enjoy and we will get on with the useful forum we have here.

Cheers,
Charles

kert says...
Ahem, are you delusional? I ask to see evidence about the harmful effects of septics on fruit trees ;get deleted by a lurker ;told to "get a life " by the, shall we say, voluble and vapid Amanda and then I'm the villain .
as an aside is it not pertinent to say that one should not post comments to everything unless one has something to say ; "look at me Mummy" type posts that serve only to draw attention to a narcisstic personality serves nothing.

John I. says...
Hi Kert. Sorry but yes you do come across as the villain. This is a gardening forum with many people putting forward what they believe to be true, and others politely refuting if they believe the opinion to be incorrect. If you want scientific proof with footnotes etc then you should be reading a science journal not an open garden forum.

BJ says...
Hi Amanda,

I totally agree, poo should be underground! In a previous life I used to work with poo. It inspired me to go back to school and start a profession that had nothing to do with crawling through drains! High density housing is not suitable for septics - depending on soil permeability etc only a certain volume can be dispersed safely. It doesn't mean the poo from flats can't be used elsewhere ... in Sydney we set up a treatment plant and there is a nice green golf course that stays green even with water restrictions!

It is off topic, but I personally would have liked to see the government stimulus for schools focus on requiring all commercial, public, and school buildings have solar panels, and water tanks. (I know solar is not commercially as efficient as coal – but invest in the technology and it will be). It would also be nice if WA followed the eastern states example of "every new dwelling to have rain tanks", and treated water for parks (shallow ground water can make legislators lazy) There are some great tanks around these days and catching the water instead of pouring it down drains (after being mixed with nasty chemicals dripped on the roads etc) is such a waste.

I want Santa to bring me a water-tank for Christmas! (I just need to research which is the best tank to fit in a small block with easement restrictions etc!)

kert says...
Yup. I give up . B.J. good luck with curing gluten allergy with worms! Let's rename it Amanda's Wonderful World of Gardening with a Special Interest in Magnetised Water and Gluten allergy.

amanda says...
Interestingly - the Biolytix-type tanks are being installed en-mass in hotel developments, caravan parks etc - this is a really positive development I reckon. We would actually be charged for mains sewage removal, thru our rates, so maybe it will pay for itself over time.
I worked in the industry too (B.C) - but at the other end - poo pathology!

Jaqui says...
Does it affect the taste of the produce at all? What would the NPK ratio be?

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Grub says...
Definitely no taste noticeable, the treated waste in a functioning unit really is exceptional, you have to remember that it is only secondary treated effluent, there is no disinfection,(ie, no chlorine, a real selling point) if you want to go to advanced secondary treatment a uv filter is the way to go.

Have seen bananas growing on a steep slope through the drought and do amazing things on the bio water.

unsure of npk levels, at service time we do a ph test and have never had a unit test outside the 6 to 7.5 paremeters.

Helmut says...
G'day Amanda
We have been using our 'Earthsafe' system for over 17 years now and had great success with growing things like Kiwifruit, Bananas and deciduous fruit trees. We just run the water out on the ground and move the hose(s) from time to time. The "black" water is great for heavy feeders such as bananas and Kiwifruit.
We don't put lots of fat or nasty chemicals into our sytem so the aerobic bacteria do a great job as there is little or no smell.
We do not use the chlorinator as chlorine is not very good for the plants and as we are on an isolated proerty and do not spray the efluant there have been no contamination problems.

Mark says...
Blackwater? You mean water straight from the tiolet, right? .... Well, If you have some chemical treatment system in place to use Blackwater, you are wasting your money! I know of people who in their backyards as well as Comercial Fruit Growers, use Blackwater WITHOUT Treatment & Great Effects! .... Think of that next time you eat grapes or citrus! That, is how they get watered.

Mark says...
Amanda, when I was a kid,(over 40 years ago), Granddad had a method he used. I've changed it slightly to incorporate human waste. ... Just get an old oil drum & clean it out.(you'll NEED a lid of some sort.) ... Back then, we used to go collect cow dung from farmers & get the horse poo from off the road when the milkman or coalman came. Instead, you can use it like an outdoor loo yourself. ADD NO CHEMICALS OR LIME!! When the drum is about Half hull of poo, you add washing water from the laundry until the drum is almost full. (Now comes the dirty bit.) You NEED an old Wooden Peg from the clothes line & a Big Solid Stick. The Peg goes on your nose! The stick is to stir the 'brew' until it is well mixed & all the one texture, DON't Knock the Drum Over!! Then put the lid back on,& leave it for about 2 months to cook, stirring once every week or two. .... When you go to use it for the garden, you put in about One Tenth of Poo mix to about Nine Tenths of Laundry Water into a container you can carry & spray from. Give it a mix,let settle, connect your hand pump & use on the garden! .... Oh, This IS Just as good on Vegie gardens as it is on Rose gardens. Spray onto the roots,not the foliage.... & Yes, I Still use this method Today & have the Best Garden in the neighbourhood!!

Bonnie says...
Questions for Amanda and any Biolytix owners:
Does anyone grow root crops in 'the zone' ie: garlic, leeks, celeriac, or maybe carrots, potatoes and beetroot?
Do I have to avoid growing rootcrops completely in the Biolytix zone?
Thanks for the help.

Rev says...
wow
what a marathon thread

i only have 2 things to add

1)
so much effort for blackwater!
maybe its just easier to give away the practice of crapping in water
compost the poo
save the clean water for the veg

plenty of info at

http://humanurehandbook.com/

its so much more hygienic then WC's and all the expensive contraptions that go with them


2)
If you want to see an establishe semi arid permaculture garden
then visit Julie Firth in Waggrakine
havent spoken with here is a little while
but she has a great garden, nursery, has oodles of experience in design and windbreaks
One of the best permaculture designers ive ever met, and in the hardest location
whats in her head is gold, too bad shes not writte it down, itd be THE text for semiarid permaculture in Australia
she may save you years of failures...

amanda says...
Hi Rev...Julie Firth has actually written a small book - it's in our library and it's very good. She lives very close by and I have visited her set up quite a few times! Small world.
I have been wanting to get her up here for a consult but she a busy lady :-(

I agree tho' - how did the flushing loo get invented anyway - it's a strange contraption when u think about it....?? :-)))

Mark says...
Amanda. You get to see my "best garden in the neighbourhood" when you come to Melbourne. I have never put pictures on this thingy, couldn't be bothered, & I don't even know how or even want to know how. If you are really worried about stink from the poo fertilizer, you can have your tank Underground, with a hose & pump. (just like a septic tank that you pump out yourself, straight onto the garden.) Do it this way, there is NO Stink!... But just using a drum, you don't need a lock down lid, just put an old wooden board on top of it, held down with a brick! > > Oh, If you really want to know what the fruits & vegies are like using poo fertilizer,,,, just try some grapes or citrus fruits or asparagus from Mildura or from some areas of South Australia!! .. Aren't they Yummy! (considering that they were grown using Sewerage!)

amanda says...
Speedy - where fore art thou?? :)

I was wondering if u have ever thought about having your Biolytix effluent water tested for salinity levels and/or Boron (and other elements) maybe?

I am having some "odd" problems in the zone. I don't have the same problems outside of it.

I am perturbed.

amanda says...
Hi Bonnie - well that's a bummer! I am not surprised though - the annual servicing fee was peanuts really - they would have lost it ten times over just when they had to clean mine out and start it up again....
Great idea and product - but pretty poor management (just my thoughts tho'). A website would be handy - but I wondering if there will be a Technical service that might step in yet..?

Julie says...
It's about as racist as blackberry, blackcurrant, blackbird or even black market - plus many other terms.

Mark says...
Amanda: Re your comment about reclaimed sewerage water being new in Oz. ::: You'd better not say that in S.A., Over there,it has been in their Drinking water for well over 29 years now. Treated of course. Also, In S.A.,there's a company that turns Human Sewerage into Fertilzer. Then they bag it & sell it to commercial growers. (think about That next time you eat some local fruit!) .. then there's all the old timers,who would build a garden in the back yard,on top of what used to be the septic tank. .. In My own case, there's a patch in the backyard that got used as the tiolet before we moved in. Now,you should see the sizes of the mushrooms I'm getting,growing on that spot. They're like dinner plates! .... My whole POINT Is:: that the use of Blackwater or Human Sewerage,treated or not, is definitely NOT a New Thing in Australia. (but it IS very effective,commercially & in the backyard.)

Mark says...
Amanda,,, Since I wrote that about the 'poo barrel'& best garden in the neighbourhood; I have moved to Mildura! So,, Now, the best garden is still waiting to be made,& the 'poo barrell' is something I no longer have. (but there is an area behind the shed,where one can go with a shovel & 'relieve oneself',, as long as the hole is NOT near the surface & IS Filled in Immediately after use by the person! ..... "Just Joking!" We really have 3 tiolets in the house,& are getting 1 removed to make into a store room.

Mark says...
No John, you've got it all wrong.(in my humble opinion.) .... Kert does not come accross as a "vilain", nor should he. He belongs on This page just as much as the rest of us do! .... Kert's requests for "proof" have nothing to do with science or scientific journals. All Kert is doing, is trying to bust a few 'Myths' that people these days willingly fall for. I can understand this,because I do the same type of thing. ... Sometimes. An Example is the use of Human 'Poo' as a fertilizer on vegetables & fruits. ... Many people think this cannot be done safely,because of where it comes from, US. ... But the truth is, Commercial growers have been using this in Australia for well over 20+ Years! (they just don't make it public,because no one would buy their produce.) When Kert asks for "Proof" he is I think, asking to be shown Examples, not scientific formulae!

speedy says...
John Mc, it's generally corect, what you said,
but i just had a jujube no more than 30cm tall flower this season in it's second year.
no fruit though.

it could have been neglect...

Mark, to germinate jujube, cut along
the seam of the stone with secateurs
(being very careful not to cut fingers.
there are 2 locules in the stone, potential for 2 seeds, usually only 1 seed.
and often none if no compatible pollen donor tree is present.


I find that once out of the stone, they germinate within a couple of weeks to a month.

speedy says...
I planted a 'Chico' from Lucy the winter before last
and it sat there not doing much til it
got it's root system established I guess.

this year it grew branches a metre or more long.
I'll prune most of them off after the fruit is finished, so i have a well shaped tree.

Mark says...
Thanks John Mc. You sort of answered what I was asking, along with 'Speedy' ( I think it was?) who filled in the gaps. ... Thanks for all that. .. I have seen Lucy on here sometimes, but I'm really not interested in buying a tree. Thanks though. ... (well, not yet anyway! I prefer to buy locally only where I can, & support the locals anyway.) ..... But thanks again!

Mark says...
Speedy,, Thanks for answering my question & correcting John Mc. I'm not sure if he needed correcting though. ... What you said, is more or less what I have done. ... I could never use secateurs without having some accident, so instead, I just cut the stone with my pocket knife. .. I didn't cut all the way through though. I just cut a groove into the stone,as I wasn't sure about going right through it, but a groove will (or should) make germination a bit easier, I hope! ... I'm planning to wait 18 months for germination,& throw it away after that if nothing happens! ... "Good Luck to Me."

Mark says...
Amanda,, Do not trust the 'Public Health Department'. (or, have blind faith in them, one or the other.) ... The Public Health Department have been "experimenting" on the general public,with no regard for public health, for over 3 Decades! ... This has all been correctly documented,which reached parliament some 20 odd years ago. The whole thing was swept under the rug. It leaked to the newspapers, but the newspapers were prevented from ever printing those documents & alerting the general public. Then, in the mid to late 1990's, a group of concerned people aquired copies of these documents. The last I heard was, they were taking the Public Health Department to court for the right to release them. ....... I have heard nothing of it all since that. ... Of course, this may not affect you at all as this was all in Victoria. .... Bottom Line is "Be careful who you trust,& what you trust them with." "GOOD NIGHT ALL"

Jantina says...
kert you've got your threads mixed up , your comment about the "piss if life" is in the kitty litter thread.

amanda says...
Damn SG....I thought they were trying to kill us off with the salinity in the tap water!?? I can see from the above that some folk are trying to provoke me rather intently here...?

All I can say is that Mark is a neurotic conspiracy theorist and kert has sold his soul to cynicism..I prefer to remain a healthy sceptic...but what really annoys me (more than kert - and off topic) is why I have to pay rates for the sewage line that goes past my property when I am not even connected to it? (oh - and also the water line too..) - I don't have to pay for the phone line or the power lines that go past?
kert - U are wasting your time here preaching to the converted mate....go and do something useful with your angst.. ;-)

amanda says...
I am wondering what Biolytix users are going to do for spare parts now that the company has dissolved??
My unit already pre-sold to another user (as our new house has to be demolished, sadly) A plumbing company would be taking over the servicing now though.
Not sure about other states - but we have to submit the service test results to our Shire/Council each year...??

Mark says...
Hi, BJ or was it Amanda? I forget. .. Anyway,, About getting a Rain-Water Tank. If you live on a 'normal sized' house block with neighbours over the fence, there are 2 practical ways to get around your problem of installing a rain water tank. .. 1: Just go out & get one,& have it installed by a plumber (so they can't say it was put in incorrectly etc.) A good one might be a Flat tank to fit between your house & the side fence (in that narrow sideway that is usually not used for anything. Get one to hold about 3,000 gallons. I have just had one put in myself. The Brand name is 'Slimeline'(I think.) ... If your tank is installed correctly, there is not a council in the country that would make you remove it! .. (oh they might bellow a bit or threaten you, but what can they really do? When the Federal Government WANTS them Put IN, how stupid would a council look if they tried to make people Remove their tanks?!!) . . & 2:: If you Don't want to take that gamble,, You can DO what many people with & without tanks do. Get a few wheelie bins,Buy them NOT Council owned bins, & stand them in whatever position with the lids Off. When the rain stops,close the lid to prevent mosquitoes breeding in the water. Or, use those big blue industrial barrels.(Cleaned First of course.) To use the water, either bucket it out or put a tap just a few inches from the bottom of the bin / barrell & attach a hose. Simple! AND,, There is NO Law in the country that says bins & barrells cannot be used this way! Wheelie bins are even marketed now as 'Mini Rain Water Tanks'!!

Mark says...
Now then after being so distracted, the Reason I came on now is to ASK You All a QUESTION.::: "Has anyone here tried to garden using the 'Findhorn' method? & Were you successfull or not? ... Remember the Findhorn garden in Scotland,back in the 1970'sith Eilleen & Peter Caddy? THAT type of gardening! ...... I only ask,because I have recently moved here to Mildura,& just the other night I was reading that Findhorn book. I got to wondering about my new veggie patch. Could I do what they did? Has anyone else done it?,,, & so here I am asking you all if you have!

Bert says...
Mildura Mark and Sydney kert. How lucky can one Forum be. Not.

amanda says...
I don't think it's "bad" as such (although some of the folks that have lost children through that nasty E.coli strain might feel differently...)

I water my trees with our sewerage and eat the fruit and I am not bothered by it...I choose to have it go through a "composting" system (eg the Biolytix) so that it isn't a stinky anaerobic mess that blocks up my irrigation system. The "composting" process biodegrades the detergents and washing powders before they get to the garden. It's all good and it's each persons own business as to what they choose to do with their "business".

Each to their own :-)

snottiegobble says...
What kind of soil do you have Jason? When I think of Portland I think of sea & sand,but maybe you are up the hill inland? This soily sand we have here costs a fortune to make it fertile, but its so easy to dig we sandgropers should be carrying little fold up shovels, eating prunes & working inland from the beach! :)

Mark says...
Kert,, E.Coli, lasts just a few minutes in the open air. Longer when it is within the body. Buried under the ground,I have no idea,but I would hazzard a 'guess' at no longer than 45 minutes (aprox.) IF there was a minimum of air. ... ( one must also take into account, that there are a few thousand strains of E.Coli. So,while we may be correct about 1 strain,the same may not be true for thousands of other strains of E.Coli!

Mark says...
Hey Snottie!,,,, Why spend a fortune to make your sandy soil fertile? There is no need to. Just read the book, "The Magic of Findhorn" and follow the examples given it it. .... If you have not heard the story, the Findhorn Garden began on freezing cold windswept sand dunes in Scotland. Scientists around the world cannot understand how they grew such a garden there, WITHOUT Fertilizers,& using Beach Sand instead of soil. ... It's worth a try I think.

snottiegobble says...
OMG! Now theres 3 of `em!

amanda says...
That's true S.G. One of the main factors going against Bio-sludge/solids as fertilisers is the high concentration of heavy metals? (the impression I got anyway)...due to industrial wastes finding their way in the system?
Is contaminated run-off one the main reasons that storm water is not recycled also? (eg: oil etc from roads and silly people who pour paint thinners etc - down the drains..?)
I am all for the recycling part - apparently we have not come close to matching the soil fertility/production that the Aztecs had going....

Xiem says...
A little verbal jousting is entertaining for some onlookers like myself but attacks like these are getting silly and childish.

Mark says...
Just going over some old listings;; Someone had mentioned flooding increasing the 'blackwater contamination',(or something like that). It was something to do with septic systems being affected by floods & contaminating the drinking water, or something. "How?" ... Last I heard, your average Septic Tank was a Concrete tank,totally sealed & a long way underground. The only opening being where the lavatory seat was located. Surely in a flood situation,this would be sealed also? So, one wonders, How could such a septic system cause "contimination" in flooding?

Mark says...
Anti-Septic,, As I remember from childhood, the top of these older tanks were at or just below ground level. Close enough to seal with some effort,but far enough down to be able to grow a garden on top of it. (usually just lawn.) Some did have a trench,yes,& they stunk as the BlackWater surfaced. However, Most people were not able to afford this & had to be content with just a pit,no trench,& covered with a 44 gallon drum cut in half with an old wooden tiolet seat & lid. That's how I remember them to be some 50 years ago. I will not debate that they may have changed from that.