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Feedback from bonsai bag users?

    53 responses

MJ starts with ...
Hi everyone

There have been a few bonsai bags threads, and I wondered if those people who are using them might chime in here with how they're going?

I'd like a few plums, almond and apricots, but they ones that look like they'd fruit reliably in fairly-coastal Perth (ie, low chill) don't come in dwarf sizes which is all I can really fit. Growing them in bonsai bags might solve that, and would also enable me to isolate some patches of decent soil (our native soil here is atrocious - apparently some of the worst in the world - alkaline, brownish sand, with no organic matter). I'd probably go straight to 35 litre bags and keep them there.

Specifically, has anyone got any full size versions of these trees in the 35 litre bags? How are they doing? Are they suitably dwarfed? Do you have them in soil or potting mix? Do you have them in bags in the ground, or on top of the ground? I'm thinking that it would be easier to keep them from drying out if the bags are in the ground, but they could be put in a pot and straw or something shoved in between to make a bit of an insulating layer which would also help. I am allowed to reticulate 3x a week as we're on a bore, but can hand water if it needs more (and in pots they usually do in summer).

I've also chosen some dwarf apples which I'm planning to plant in the bags. These need to be above ground, as I want to allow for moving them in winter to full shade in case I need
to try to get a few extra chill hours.

Oooh, a bit of inspiration - if I put blueberries in decent potting mix I could put them in the bed! (I'll never be able to reduce the pH enough to plant them directly in the ground.) Be good if I got a bit of dwarfing on them too. Wonder what size bag for blueberries...

Thanks in advance for your feedback on the bonsai bags.

MJ
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18th March 2013 12:12am
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Phil@Tyalgum says...
Julie from Roleystone is probably the best one to ask, she was one of the first to trial them as far as I can remember. I did try them but found the potting mix dried out and was difficult to rewet, I had them above ground though. Perhaps they would do a better job if planted out, but my plants were in a greenhouse as they were tender, frost sensitive species.
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TyalgumPhil
Murwillumbah
22nd March 2013 11:51am
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Anonymous says...
Hi Phil,

Thanks so much for your response!

Most of mine are intended to be in the ground, and largely for the drying-out reason, but also for decorative reasons.

The ones above ground, I'd intended to have set in a decorative pot (terracotta, or similar) with a buffer of straw or something between to insulate them, and lots of mulch on top, so hopefully that would help a little. (I'm in Perth - drying out is a serious issue.) I was also hoping to plant pyrethrum and/or lavender either side of the pots to shade the pots to try to help there too.

I'm also investigating various other options (other than retic, which is only allowed to be used three times a week) to keep the pots watered. I'm particularly interested in ollas, which I can hopefully fill up automatically with the retic, and then have a gentle flow during the week, instead of getting a large influx once and then drying out in between. Need to experiment on the size of the olla, so need to pick up a few terracotta pots to try that out.

I have been in touch with Julie, and she's planning to respond, so I will look forward to hearing her experience.

Thanks
MJ
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22nd March 2013 2:46pm
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Julie says...
So sorry MJ - I have been reading posts but had no time to reply properly.

I have never grown fruit trees in pots, so it was a steep learning curve for me. I had mixed results, with citrus doing best. Almond did poorly, as did the Gala apple.

Now much of this was probably down to lack of nutrition - I think I was treating the trees in bags the same as ones in the ground. As I found out with growing tomatoes in pots, they have much heavier feeding requirements. I hope to do better next season.

The original bags, which I preferred, were a different shape. I don't know why they changed them. All mine are above ground, as I intended to move house, but it fell through. They may have done better in ground, but I no longer have the energy to dig the holes!

BTW, mine are the 20 litre size, I have no experience with the larger ones. Apparently, the larger the bag the larger the tree. I did wrap mine in some swimming pool blanket pieces to try and insulate from the heat.

What is an olla? I have heard the word, but can't remember what it is. Hope this has been some help - ask more questions if not!
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Julie
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22nd March 2013 9:12pm
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Anonymous says...
Thanks Julie. I've also had nutritional issues with potted trees! I am doing better now, so I think it is worth a try. I would do the 35 litre bags, I think, for most of the trees. I guess worst case I can then put them into wine barrels later down the track. Sounds like it would be well worth trying to insulate the bag, so I will think on the best way to do that.

What shape are the current bags? I've got some 20litre ones coming for my blueberries but they haven't arrived yet.

An olla is a clever idea from a long time ago - it is basically a terracotta (porous) bottle which you bury next to your plant, leaving an opening at the top (with a plug, or a rock, on top of it). You then fill the terracotta bottle with water and it slowly wicks out. The roots apparently will grow to the olla. For my wine barrels I'm thinking I'd need several. Some people make diy ones with terracotta plant pots and some silicon to glue them together. There is a commercial version with a separate tank and pipes, which is called wetpots, but I haven't actually seen them. I might need to take up pottery to make my own!

To feed my fig, when I moved it to a wine barrel I made a little in-pot worm farm. I started it with a small scoop of manure, so it will have done the plant good regardless. I did it just before those last two hot days we had (with a 27 degree night in between) and the worms survived; they also seem to have survived that 26ml of rain we had that day last week, so so far so good. My two worst case scenarios for worm survival, and the fig seems to be happy - putting on new growth.

Thanks
MJ

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23rd March 2013 12:19am
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MaryT says...
I don't have any experience with bonsai bags though I did use them for a short time as in-between measures. Most of my trees are in pots and I find that if I'd prepared the mix properly the trees thrive. You do have to watch them closely for any nutritional imbalance but most of gardening is done with the eyes anyway. Once you spot the problem it is usually easy to correct. It's certainly worth it or I would be looking at a bare patch of concrete instead of the picture you see.
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23rd March 2013 6:33am
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Original Post was last edited: 23rd March 2013 7:54am
Anonymous says...
I don't know why it keeps thinking I'm "anonymous" as I'm logged in properly...

Anyway...

Do either of you have any comments on root escapes? Only an issue if they were in-ground, probably.

Ta!
MJ
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23rd March 2013 7:59pm
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Julie says...
I haven't checked MJ, but I think Phil had a problem - so long ago I can't remember. Mine are above ground on bricks for drainage.

BTW, forgot to say,my bluberries are doing really well in bags.

The original 20 L bags were black and round. The last ones I bought were much longer and skinnier. Different material too. But the larger ones may not be the same.



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Julie
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23rd March 2013 9:27pm
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Anonymous says...
Ah, okay. I will see when they arrive, I guess. I think wider would be better than thinner, especially for things like citrus. but my citrus can go into the ground, I think. We brought in about 50cm of safe soil and their roots are shallow.

I wonder if I should double-bag some of the trees in the ground - a 35litre, set into a bigger bag, but not a bonsai bag of course as they don't have bigger than 35litres. So the roots have a harder time getting out... In some places it won't matter, but there are a few spots where it would be better to contain roots.

Thanks
MJ

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24th March 2013 1:18am
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Anonymous says...
Ooh, Julie, I have been looking at the blog. Are you the Julie shown there growing trees in bags?
MJ
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Db says...
I'm growing few trees in bonsai bags and few trees in pot. But I don't have much experience with bonsai bags as I started using them only recently. My 2 dragon fruit trees are in 75L bag and they are doing extremely good, growing vigorously. Couple of other trees are recently planted in bags. All bags are above ground. I have also purchased 150L bags for my mango trees.
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Db
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24th March 2013 10:26am
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Julie says...
MJ - probably, but can't find it! I know there was a pic with me and mandarin in a bag.( mandarin in bag, not me!) Where was it?
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24th March 2013 2:39pm
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Original Post was last edited: 24th March 2013 2:40pm
Anonymous says...
I think this is the link:
http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/blog/2006/07/bonsai-bag-fruit-trees.html

The mandarin looks great! Is it still doing well? Looks like a decent crop of mandarins for such a little tree!

MJ
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24th March 2013 11:41pm
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Anonymous says...
Db, where did you get your bags, and are they the same as the ones that Daleys sell? Do the roots grow out of the bottom?

(Sorry for so many questions - I have a huge dust bowl at the moment and it is starting to cool off now, so planting is imminent!)

MJ
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24th March 2013 11:46pm
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Julie says...
Anonymous, yes it still bears well. Doesn't taste quite as sweet as the same variety I have in the ground, but again, that is probably down to lack of nutrition I guess. Makes lovely marmalade though!

My trees in bags are in an out of the way site, so don't get checked as often as they should.

BTW, it has never been pruned, apart from snipping off the odd dead wood. It is a little larger than the original pic, but has stayed small.

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Julie
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25th March 2013 9:19pm
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Original Post was last edited: 25th March 2013 9:21pm
Db says...
MJ, I bought mine from Gardencityplastics, they have branches in all major cities, so you should be able buy these woven bags (and lot of other garden stuff as well) from their Perth branch.. They have various sizes of woven bags, they even stock 2500L size bag (yes 2500L).. They are very cheap, from memory I paid only $2.50 for 45L size, around $4.5 for 75L and $8 for 150L bags... Bigger bags have thicker material, I found quality of these bags to be very good.. Here is the direct link - http://www.gardencityplastics.com/Growingbags/WovenBags

I planted my DF plants in this woven bags only 6-7 months back, I'm not sure if roots have come out of bottom so quick, I have not tried lifting DF bags to check that as bags are already very heavy, I don't see any roots coming out from side...
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Db
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25th March 2013 11:06pm
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Original Post was last edited: 25th March 2013 11:09pm
Julie says...
Db, I have a large tree in one of those woven bags, but they are not bonsai bags. The original 20 litre B.bags had little pinprick holes all over the material. The 35 litre ones were made of shadecloth.

This supposedly stops the roots from growing beyond a certain point - they don't just curl round at the bottom, but actually stop growing. Hence the 'bonsai' effect. Well, that's what they claim.

I bought mine from NZ, then Daley's started stocking them - think I bought the second lot from Daley's.

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Julie
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26th March 2013 6:21pm
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Original Post was last edited: 26th March 2013 6:23pm
Db says...
Julie, that make some sense, thanks for clearing... I bought mine as a cheaper alternative for bigger pots and also to restrict tree growth as compared to one grown in ground... I still didn't get why roots will grow differently in bonsai bag in comparison with tree grown in woven bags, is it due to different woven aeration? (to me it looks almost same in both case)
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Db
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26th March 2013 9:39pm
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Anonymous says...
Db, I've been googling a bit on root containment bags, and there look like several different kinds. Some are a felt sort of fabric, some are a knit fabric. They seem to get the same advertising about root pruning.

Do you find they need a lot of water? Now that I'm in a tree bag kind of frame of mind, I keep seeing corners of the garden that could get another fruit tree! Especially if they really do reduce the pruning etc. But we get long, hot, dry summers where regular pots need watering daily, and sometimes more, so I'm wondering about that.

MJ
(It still might be calling me anonymous, I don't know how to fix that...)
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27th March 2013 1:33pm
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Anonymous says...
My 20 litre bags have arrived for the blueberries.

They are a plastic non-woven fabric (a bit like a tarp), that looks like it would hold the water well. It is green and fairly squat - I think the sides are about 25cm tall. It has two handles. It does have a few holes in the bottom and down at the bottom part of the sides for drainage. No pinprick holes, and not made of shadecloth.

They'll do a good job of solving my blueberry problem. These ones will be sunk into the ground and once I've mulched around it you won't see it at all, so hopefully that will help the bag survive even longer.

Bye
MJ
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27th March 2013 5:23pm
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Julie says...
Looks like they have changed the bags yet again. I'd love to know the reasoning behind it.
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Julie
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27th March 2013 6:36pm
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Anonymous says...
Hi again
I rather suspect that the bonsai bags and the woven bags from GCP are the same thing... Which leaves me to ask, Julie, how is your tree in a similar bag doing? I'm keen to avoid the root circling thing and wonder how the bags work.
Thanks
MJ
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29th March 2013 6:02pm
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Db says...
To me also, both bags looks same. Daleys also describe their bonsai bag as 'Woven planter bag'. I don't think any sort bag can really stop tree circulating roots... Roots will circulate in Daleys 'bonsai bag' as well... In my last visit to Daleys nursery, I saw couple of advanced trees in 20L and 35L bonsai bags and roots have popped out of bottom holes... Root pruning and tree pruning is the key of developing real 'bonsai tree', not the bonsai bag... I think its just the different name for woven (grower) bag... The advanced tree in bonsai bag that I saw at Daleys was around 8ft tall, so obviously not 'bonsai' tree...

MJ, I water my plants in pots and woven bags everyday except rainy days..
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Db
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29th March 2013 7:57pm
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Julie says...
Well, that's disappointing. The original B. bags were black plastic and as I described.

MJ, I need to check, as I suspect it may have found its way into the ground. It is sitting on concrete, but there are gaps. It is supposd to be a Neem tree - I bought fairly expensive seeds from a reputable seed company.

But now I think it is probably a Cape lilac, having seen other Neem seeds - a different shape. Cross about that.



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29th March 2013 8:42pm
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Anonymous says...
That's disappointing, Julie.

Db, 8 feet doesn't overly worry me - in some cases it would be good. I have been reading the article from the New Zealand man about them and he talked about it dwarfing the size but that it was dependent on the "original" size so some trees would be bigger than others.

I have also been doing lots of googling on various root containment/bonsai style bags and at least some of them do seem to work. I might try to get some from the New Zealand supplier and compare. If I can get the kind of set up that he talks about, I might be able to add a few more trees.

MJ
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Db says...
MJ, I also don't mind 8ft tall tree in my bag, in fact I would like my trees to grow that big... The point I was trying to say was Daleys bonsai bags are no different to GCP bags as I have seen taller trees in Daleys bags as well (means no bonsai) with roots coming out...
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30th March 2013 7:35pm
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Anonymous says...
Db, I think they are the GCP bags, as they have that printed on the side...

I agree, unless it does the root pruning thing, I don't think it is bonsaiing. Time will tell if the roots circle in these bags. There are holes in the bag, so I expect at least some roots to escape. (Not a crisis in this bed, though the blueberry would be *much* happier to keep its roots in the bag!) I guess I'll repot (rebag?) in a year or so and find out.

The googling I've been doing on the air pruning bags look very interesting, so I will get some (there are two different brands I'm looking at, but there are lots of others) and see how they go. They do appear to "bonsai" the plant, in that those bags seem to air prune the roots, avoiding the need to manually root prune. By reducing the root ball it theoretically reduces the canopy, reducing the pruning there. The reading I've done leaves me very keen to try it.

Bye
MJ
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MaryT says...
"Bonsai" is a Japanese term derived from the Chinese 盤栽 (in Mandarin, panzai). It simply means container planting. Originally, plants from nature, usually weathered old trees clinging to cliffs on very little soil, dwarfed and beautifully shaped by wind, are removed and planted in pots. Even today, panzai hunters still roam in the wild risking life and limbs to find these true miniatures, living proof of the tenacity of life. The problem with 'root binding' can be solved by not letting the plant grow too big by pruning and not overfeed/water.
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31st March 2013 7:12am
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Anonymous says...
MaryT, I really enjoyed looking through your edibles page. I'm excited by the success you've had with all your pots as I'll have lots.
MJ
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Original Post was last edited: 31st March 2013 1:23pm
MaryT says...
Thanks MJ; pot plants are more work but you have control. Being able to move them about is an advantage. :) I am about to do a reshuffle as the light changes.
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Julie says...
MJ, I'm going to search 'air pruning'. From what you say, it sounds like the design of the original Bonsai bags, which were meant to do that.
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31st March 2013 6:32pm
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Anonymous says...
Hi Julie
Smart Pots is one brand I've been looking at. Look good, and they'll post to us. Have to reply to them after Easter to get prices. There are some YouTube videos about them. There are other brands as well.
MJ
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Anonymous says...
Also, have you seen the soil blocks for starting seeds? Similar idea, but the soil is self-supporting. The roots hit the outside and stop.

MJ
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Original Post was last edited: 31st March 2013 8:12pm
Julie says...
Had a look at the Smart Pots MJ. Rather pricey for my tiny budget! I'll have to stick with my (free) polystyrene boxes. They do look nice though.

I also checked out the air pruning pots. I don't think they would be suitable for our hot, dry climate. They look like they would dry out too easily with so much area exposed to air.

But I am interested to see how you go. We can all learn from each other, which makes this forum so great!
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Original Post was last edited: 2nd April 2013 2:02am
Anonymous says...
Julie, do you think they'd be worse for drying out than the bonsai bags you've got?
MJ
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Julie says...
Well, the one I saw had pretty big holes, all round and at the bottom. Nothing like my first Bonsai bags, which had tiny pin-prick holes all over. So yes to your question, IMO.

These were meant to be in the ground, so above ground I wrapped them in left-over swimming pool insulation. Well, I think that's what it is. Keeps the sun off the bag anyway.
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Anonymous says...
Hmm, I wonder if we were looking at different bags. The ones I saw were made of a felt-like fabric. No holes, as such, but the fabric was porous.

I do think they would want extra insulation in our summers.
MJ
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Db says...
MJ, I'm not sure if you have read this before but I found this excellent information regarding Daleys Bonsai bags (not sure if it is valid for latest bags that daleys sells) -

http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/trees-in-bags-boost-productivity.htm
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Julie says...
Thanks Db - I sent that to Daleys a long time ago. The bags in the article are the ones I bought from NZ, but then they changed. I have no idea what Daleys is selling now.
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Db says...
Julie, nice to know it was your post..
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Anonymous says...
Thanks, Db.

Wonder how the current bags work. Maybe I should email Correy? I think he has a few trees in them.

MJ
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4th April 2013 12:26pm
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Jenny says...
I have quite a few trees in bags both above and in ground. However I can't comment for long term, I estimate my black sapote has been in the longest (just over a year) and hasn't done that much, it was sickly to start with and they are slow growing. I have always used premium potting mix and some sort of mulch usually sugar cane.
My strawberry guava, though shy-bearing compared to my yellow cherry, is a lot healthier in the green bonsai bag than it was in the pot previously, it doesn't seem to dry out as quickly. However it is not in full sun all day.
I have had my abiu less than a year, it is above ground and is really taking off at the moment.
My edranol avo is in-ground in a bag, again for less than a year and is putting on good growth.
In general I am very happy for now with the bags. Certainly the ones above ground dry out quicker & I have to water them more but I only water once or twice a week depending on rain & temperature. As that very excellent article DB provided the link for advises with fertilizer, little & often is the way to go. I haven't had any issues with roots (yet) and these are the bags from Daleys. I will have to investigate the local supplier DB mentioned.
I am using the bags because of space issues, also lower watering requirements, containment of roots and also protection from other trees' roots. So far I would cautiously say they are a success, but only a few of my trees have been old enough to fruit so far.


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Jenny
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4th April 2013 1:07pm
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Db says...
Jenny, looks like your Daleys bags are Garden City plastic bags as I can see 'GCP' label on all bags that are above ground in your photos.. I bought EXACTLY same bags but directly from 'Garden City plastics', they are MUCH cheaper to buy from them and LOT of sizes to choose...

PS: Your trees looks very healthy in those bags
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Db
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4th April 2013 2:19pm
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Original Post was last edited: 4th April 2013 2:24pm
Jenny says...
I can't believe they are so close to me, I will check them out as soon as I can! Thanks for the tip.
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Jenny
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4th April 2013 2:25pm
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Anonymous says...
Your trees look great, Jenny! It may be too early, but is there any evidence of roots at the edge of the bags? (Is it even possible to tell without unbagging them? Don't want to ask you to do that!!!)

They are the identical bags I've got now, so I'm pleased to hear that you're happy with them.

MJ
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4th April 2013 3:05pm
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Jenny says...
yes the trees all seem happy so far. They don't seem root-bound yet. I think if you move them every couple of months as I do (particularly the ones on pine bark in the garden), any fine roots coming out of the bottom would get discouraged. Of course I plan to prune when needed to keep them small too, and that I believe will naturally keep the roots under control.
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Jenny
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4th April 2013 5:00pm
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Anonymous says...
I guess I could also put a slab down under them - roots wouldn't go very far on concrete!
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4th April 2013 9:11pm
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denise1 says...
Some fussy tropical trees may not want to grow straight in the ground if the climate etc is marginal. By planting them in a bonsai bag or similar, and then allowing them to root into the ground, the tree can establish itself at leasure.
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denise1
auckland NZ
5th April 2013 7:17pm
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Anonymous says...
Hi Denise

Thanks!

In some cases I don't want them to root into the ground around it (possible soil contamination), but in other places it would be fine.

Hopefully the bagging would still keep the plant much smaller, as that opens up possibilities for a number of other trees that are just plain too big! It's opened up all sorts of possibilities for me!

MJ
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5th April 2013 7:42pm
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denise1 says...
Important tip for growing compact plants in a bonsai bag. Avoid pruning out twigs and branches from the lower or inner part of the tree even if untidy. It will only encourage faster vertical growth and make the tree harder to keep small.
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denise1
auckland NZ
8th April 2013 11:07am
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Anonymous says...
Denise, do you like to tip prune frequently?

I've been pondering the best way to prune my potted (not bagged) fig tree. It desperately wants pruning as it is leggy and didn't fruit all that well (although it is a small tree, so that's okay).

There are a few shoots coming out from the bottom, which have come up in the last couple of years, but other than that the branches are sort of long and sticky with leaves at the end. I'm sort of thinking I'll leave the shoots at the bottom, and then cut everything else back by 1/3-1/2. I think it would be good to get it into more of a bush shape.

MJ
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8th April 2013 3:43pm
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denise1 says...
If you have a humid garden then it is important to keep the tree open to avoid rotting of fruit. So it would be near perfect to have openness inside the tree with lots of twigs branching out on the outside to carry lots of fruit. Instead of cutting everything to a smaller ball shape, you could try cutting out a few entire branches right to near the base. The effect would be to allow heaps of light for development of branchlets and fruit on the remaining branches. I think we used to use chicken manure at the base to encourage fast foliage and fruit capacity. Important also is lime. This year we put bird feathers tied next to some fruit and it seems to have been what kept birds away. With most deterrents the birds can get wise and start to ignore it. Some people make a big hole in their fertile soil and put in broken concrete slab and rubble and then put back some soil and a fig tree. It keeps the tree smaller for longer and the tree gets lime from the concrete. It has a similar effect as a bonsai bag.
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denise1
auckland NZ
9th April 2013 6:41am
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Anonymous says...
I never think of lime, as I'm in a high lime area, but of course a potted plant is different. I will check this out, but I think our bore water is also limey, so perhaps this is covered.

Last year I fertilised it with dynamic lifter, and this year it has an in-pot-worm-farm. I started it with a scoop of cow manure, hay as bedding and kitchen scraps, so hopefully that will fertilise the plant. It doesn't have many worms yet, as I didn't want to put too many in while it was still experimental! It has been very successful, so I can probably add a few more to get it moving a bit faster.

At present, the tree is very exposed (though hopefully that will improve once the garden is planted and has time to grow a bit), and in a low humidity area. Our climate is cool, wet winters, and hot, dry summers generally with low humidity. I've attached a photo of my sad-looking tree. It is partly looking sad due to it being autumn but it hasn't been pruned since I've had it (3 years) and possibly not in the year or two my SIL and BIL had it before that.

Best wishes
MJ
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
  
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9th April 2013 11:50am
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Evergrow Orchard says...
Hi
This is a really old thread but are you still looking for the NZ guy (Field Horticulture, Fred Field) who sells root restriction bags?
We can supply these if you still would like to try them out.
Regards,
Sheryl Black
Evergrow Orchard, NZ
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Evergrow Orchard
NZ
9th September 2016 7:44pm
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