gardening in Perth sands

Kath starts with ...
I went to a free Great Food Gardens workshop Thursday night-it was terrific & I learnt so much about gardening in our terrible sand. The speakers were excellent & like they pointed out, a lot of eastern states advice just won't work here. The link if anyone is interested in attending is http://www.greatgardens.info/main.php
I was wondering if anyone has used a product called Sand Remedy-link-
http://www.greenlifesoil.com.au/sandremedy.htm
-it is said to be a "once off" instead of the continuous money pit of wetting agents-it is not stocked at our local Bunnings-probably for this reason!! If anyone has tried it I'd love to hear what they thought. It retails at about $33 for 5 kgs which is said to cover 16 m2 which isn't cheap but if it is truly a once off it would be money well spent. Thanks heaps
Kathy from Karnup

Kath says...
Thanks Jimmy, I'm wondering if the workshops we went to were run by the same people! They did recommend mulch but it was where you register for it for free & I didn't feel pushed at all ( & I'm normally pretty cynical about people pushing products) . I found the main presenter the opposite-he was into doing things on the cheap & recycling. They did have brochures on various things but you just chose which ones you wanted & a lot were ag. dept stuff or general water saving, worm farming etc-not a particular company. Yes, they did suggest Sand Remedy -who knows maybe they have shares in the company or maybe it actually works & does replace continually applying wetting agents.I don't have relatives with a farm with excess clay unfortunately!! Plus these days the fuel to collect it would buy enough of the other stuff to do me! cheers!

Jimmy says...
The hot plumbers wife down the road sill likes hers.

But normal heavy clay (5%) did just as good a job.

Kath says...
Thanks Julie-I bought some of that kitty litter yesterday-great tip as it was not too exy to get a large bag.

sarah says...
Hi,

I'm trying to give away 1 cubic meter of "gutter mulch" every wednesday for the rest of the year. Theres a local perth gutter cleaning business that vacuums the leaves out of the gutters and will deliver the mulch south of the river. (pics of mulch inc)

Do you know anyone that might want some? if so email iwantmulch@gmail.com

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2

Julie says...
Brad, I guess the zeolite etc is all gone now? Maybe they will stock it again, so what was the store?

Kath says...
Also Julie,the local stock feeds sell bentonite for $22 for 25kg bags-hope this is of use

Julie says...
amanda, not a hope in hell of getting that in Perth! A landscape guy told me some time ago you can't buy loam any more. He may have been wrong, but he said you couldn't legally remove it and sell it.

amanda says...
Had a thought about bulk clay - why not approach your landscape supplier to get it in (bulk) from a brickworks (as they have the permits to excavate it) It's always cheaper to buy something by the trailer load and if the mulch-dude doesn't think it will sell just refer him to this site! He would be a dill not see the need!

Big Col says...
hi can some one tell me if its worth while plantins tomatoes chillis and pumpkin in my little side garden.The space its self faces due north but only gets about two hours of direct sunlight a day but gets plenty of residual light. I would like to fill the space up coz its just a waste other wise.The gardens size is approx 1500X3000 with the skinny side facing the sun. It has a fence running down one side hence while there's only limited sun.Any information is greatly appreciated cheers.

Brad says...
Hi BC, lack of sunlight is probably more of an issue for tomatoes. they can grow in our soils, but beware nematodes if you keep planting those types of plant in the same spot.

No idea what the rest of your garden looks like, but maybe a banana patch could be made out of this spot?

Big Col says...
Thanks for the advice l&g the area in question has lattice down one side which is my car port and super six fence down the other will post a photo I like the idea about the pepino and agree the direct heat may be an issue so it may be ok will keep you posted

Jimmy says...
The problem is they sell it by the tonne and most gardeners work in cubic metres. Get the ratio from the seller. I reckon about 100mm over the soil ie 10 sqaure meters per cubic metre would be a good starting point.

1/4 acre is 1000m = 100 cubic metres of clay !

Mags says...
Update re trying to get clay; is there a "bang head against brick wall" emoticon? Thank goodness Coles now deliver and I can bulk order kitty litter (as an aside, will that encourage more cats to poop in my garden?)

snottiegobble says...
I have just looked at our Coles kitty litter & it is "natural clay" so would that be bentonite? If so I will double Pussakins`( Nero`s) ration & use it already fertilised. BTW Nero gets to walk around the garden on a leash, spends his morning in a pen & the rest of the time indoors. He is quite happy & so are we because we have birds, lizards, & frogs & our cat doesnt annoy the neighbours!

snottiegobble says...
Yes Mags exactly! For some reason they think they have the right to let their cats wander into other peoples properties just because they climb & dogs dont.

amanda says...
Mags - in one of those links it mentions that sheep manure makes the soil more water repellant. I have found this to be true also. I just thought of it now - as I have been using pig manure recently and realised it doesn't do this at all - it's been great.

Only problem is it can be a bit smelly if not aged enough!

amanda says...
Hi Mags - I was just thinking that with the new water restrictions - that water repellance issues will likely get worse for many folk in the south-west?

It might be ok for your situation - it's a bit different for me here as my garden has no protection from the winds and is a very big garden (so I can't afford to be very generous with water) If you are adding clay - then this will solve may problems anyway.

It's just good to file away the info so that if you do have problems you can fix. :)

snottiegobble says...
Amanda, some shire & city councils have cat traps available on loan. (Well they do in Vic) Once you catch your feral cat you just ring up & someone comes to take it away & deal with it.

I am also finding that sheep manure repels water once its allowed to dry out.

Rahaidi says...
This has always worked for me. Add your layer of manure around your fruit trees then add on top of that a layer of good size pebbles. As I live along the coast I get good size limestone rocks and rubble that I simply put on top. Test it out it works. When you hose in the water does not run out/down but instead runs straight in. Lift the rocks and feel the soil and it will be actually be throughly wet. The rocks will be your mulch and protect the soil from being water repellent as the soil is protected by the wind and extreme temps here in Perth.

Simple methods are always the best and this is one of them. If you want to add more manure/compost down then simply take the rocks out temporarily and put them back in once your annual soil ammendments are done.

Ruddy says...
The purist and cheapest quality of bentonite clay in granulated form(easy to spread) can be purchased for about $50.00 per 25kg from any good commercial winery supplier.

snottiegobble says...
Clay as stock feed for which animals Daniel? How much do City Landscaping charge for the Harvey loam in a 6x4 ?

snottiegobble says...
Thanks itdep. I am really keen to get some because I reckon that when mixed with potting mix it will conserve most of the liquid fertilisers that normally get washed away each time the pots are watered.

amanda says...
Hi Aileen - what a great idea! I wish your blog was around 5yrs ago when I started my garden here - it would have saved me much heartache finding those things out the hard way!?
I look forward to joining in too :)

Jimmy says...
Nope, green life soil co have a website and their mixes contain the sand remedy that they make.

Simon says...
Just thought id give everyone some info about bentonite clay and a two thumbs up rating.

Bentonite Clay increases the water holding capacity of the sandy soils, by changing its structure to be more like a loam soil. If you could imagine sand being small inert particles that hold little to no water then by adding clay the gaps between the sand are filled by the finer clay particles, in turn slowly the water from soaking through. It also help prevent water repellency issues because the clay attracts water molecules.

Once mix using a rotary hoe it will remain in the soil for ever. It is important to mix it in throughly and should only be done dry.

You can buy Bentonite Clay from us for $15 per bag for 25KG. www.sustainableoutdoors.com.au which is a lot cheaper than other competitors on the market.

We recommend using no less than 2.5Kg per m2 but a better rate would be up to 5Kg per m2.

This really is the best soil amendment which you can give to your garden before anything else.

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

snottiegobble says...
Hang on buddy! My wife pays $4.70 for 10kg at Coles so amounts to $11.85 for 25kgs.
You will have to sell 25ks for $10 in bulk orders to win us over!

snottiegobble says...
Stick around on the forum Razza, youre good value!

Lucifer says...
Many thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread, very informative.
Two brown thumbs up.

With the info here, green thumbs soon... hopefully!

Jimmy says...
Ok, so is spongelite or zeolite any diffrent or any better?

I have added Sodium Bentonite to my veg patch about an inch thick and rotary hoed in.

No real diffeance noted other than if i walk on it, my feet stick to the ground.

Julie says...
adamus, we don't find clay 'at the side of the road' in Perth. The name of the thread is 'Gardening in Perth Sands', and that is just what we have - sand.

There may be clay loam in the hills, but I don't know if anyone is selling it. amanda said (some time ago) that she got some clay(?) from a brickworks. Don't know where they get it from. Anyone know?

Itdepends says...
Local landscaping mob down here in Bunbury had Harvey river loam for a while- basically a clayey loam. I gave up on my sand- took 12 9x5 trailer loads out of the vege garden and replaced it. Now I'm adding gypsum to get a good crumb structure- and loving it.

Jimmy says...
Biojohn has 25 Kg for $20 in Belmont for zeolite.

It's taken 6 months and multiple rotary hoeings but i'm starting to really like the bentonite.

Will zeolite as well be better? or is that just overkill?

Jimmy says...
use a hire rotary hoe :)

Julie says...
Michael, I suggest you put this in a separate thread. You might get more responses.

Cat says...
I have started making a slurry of a handful of clay from pottery use mixed in a bucket of water. I let it sit until the clay dissolves and the water goes all clayey then pour that around the base of the fruit trees and where I plant veges etc. Less labour intensive than applying clay to all that useless sand.

snottiegobble says...
Its actually www.soilsolver.com.au but but isnt it expensive for something just dug up & transported?

Charles cant spell says...
I should have a better handle on Soil solver soon, Gavin is going to have a bed in the community garden next to me. The comittee had a chat to him the other day (which i was late for), but on previous communications the scieince of belnding the quarry granite dusts, and other mineral suplements sounded quite rigorous. I would imagine its a similar product to Sand Remedy. Yes snottie I agree they are all costly, but if a cubic meter of garden soil from green life cost $120 I guess you can charge a fair price for someing that will ammend your own soil effectively. You then add organic matter and manures as appropriate and required.
There is a lot more in Soil Solver than just benonite and that costs about $400 a tonne direct from the supplier.
So they are all costly but it is a business and some the products are actually just what we need and there is now a demand for this stuff so I guess it wont be cheap.

Also people have been very conditioned to look for cheap rather than economical, the two are not the same, hopefully the days of buying cheap short term consumerist unnecessary crap imported from china from Bunnings are coming to an end. Rant rant :)

Jo says...
Just wanted to thank all of you for the discussion going on here! It is SO hard to find good information that relates to super-sandy coastal Perth soils!!!

I don't know whether someone still wanted to hear about experiences with Sand Remedy, but I've used it. I can't really give a great deal of feedback because my soil situation is thoroughly unresolved and I've only done little bits and pieces of trying to fix it, when I can. So in combination with doing the job properly, this product may well be magical, but I wouldn't know because that isn't my situation. :)

I will say that when I've potted up plants and added it to the mix, or planted in the ground and added some, they do seem happy and the planting mix definitely has a different texture than without it.

Like others, I had also experimented with the kitty litter option, but it's fantastic to learn that clays can be bought from stock feed suppliers, and rock minerals/zeolite from fish supply places!!! I would never have learned this another way. Other times when I've done searches for garden amendments I haven't found info like this.

THANKS!!!!

P.S. I have cats and I'm responsible with them, I don't let them roam around fighting at night time, and of course they're kept healthy and vaccinated and desexed and everything. But I just hope non-cat owners realise that to keep cats from lounging around in other people's yards a little bit is pretty much impossible. Unless you keep the cats indoors, or in little cat "playgrounds". It's just my opinion -- and I totally respect anyone who has another view and does it another way -- but to me, with cats being the really intelligent, agile, explorer-type creatures that they are, those options just seem more unsatisfactory than the alternative of having the kitties do the occasional poo or wee in someone else's yard. I mean, they even cover it up! It's manure, y'know! Soil amendment! Isn't that what we're talking about....? :) :) Granted, my cats do seem to go in my own yard far more than anyone else's... I wonder if some cat owners have a less-than-ideal yard setup, and it encourages pooing and weeing in other yards a bit more? I don't know.

Some dog owners or non-pet owners seem really intolerant of cats, but cats are a heck of a lot quieter to live near than most dogs and many humans, :) and have a ton of other advantages....?? I tolerate barking throughout the day, on and off, as well as loudish parties and barbecues, music, overhearing conversations and arguments, babies crying, noisy equipment and machinery, people's eucalypts dropping endless mess into my yard, and just all the other everyday little annoying things that come with living near others... and in return, my neighbors are okay with an odd poo or wee, which is always covered up by the kitties. :D

Haha anyway, as a cat owner I apologise for this factor on behalf of all cat owners... :) I do understand how it must be annoying. I just thought that might clarify how the cat owners sometimes view it, and why they don't "stop their cats coming into other people's yards"... because in many cases that is totally impossible, if you want your pets to have a normal cattish outdoorsy life.

There are some methods of making cat-proof fencing, but the cost can be prohibitive as well as the fact that other structures around a house and yard can allow the cat to get onto the house roof, which renders the fencing useless. Believe me, we tried -- we love our cats so much and are very protective, and we wanted them to be able to play in our yard, but no-one else's. But unless you can enclose your whole yard with a moat, Nazi concentration camp barbed wire fencing, or a huge medieval-style citadel wall, and have no decent-sized trees, the cats find a way. In many cases it's about as practical and do-able as stopping your kids from playing in the backyard, because you don't want any noise to ever annoy the neighbours. :)

Haha anyway, thanks for listenin', and again for the great discussion and information here. :)

Jimmy says...
cats make great cray bait.

snottiegobble says...
Very true Jason, but dogs by law are not supposed to run free anytime & because they dont climb should be easier to contain. Cats, on the other hand are the only pets that are free to roam, damage peoples gardens, crap in kids sandpits & purposely annoy cats that are contained as well as their owners. All that on top of the environmental destruction they cause feral & otherwise.
Jimmy, I saw crates of netted Aust salmon ( tonnes of them) loaded onto trucks at Hamelyn Bay this time last year & inquired what they were for fearing they were for catfood. No they were for craypots so dont talk to me about crays!

amanda says...
I admire cats - but I won't have them again myself, either :-( if they aren't eating the birds then it's the lizards. They are not to blame - just doing what nature intended them to do.
You can satisfy their prey drive without letting them 'roam' to do it.

Some breeds of dogs have a very high prey drive - eg: with sheep dogs it's a 'herding drive' - with other breeds it's a hunting/kill drive...
You don't use a border collie to hunt pigs, for eg? We have a Staffy with a hunting drive for small animals that run....eg: rabbits and chooks. She is not evil - she just has that particular drive. It means that she can never be around cats n chooks etc, for eg, because I couldn't trust her to contain herself. So she is kept away from temptation, and we try to satisfy her drive thru' play.

So why leave a cat around birds/temptation etc..?? Why are cats allowed to do what dogs are not allowed to get away with? A dog that kills a cat can be destroyed by the council.. but what about a cat that kills a bird...?

Jantina says...
Have to agree with SG, Amanda and Jason Jo, I do like cats and always had them as pets as children but many many years ago made a conscious decision not to have any more because of the environmental damage they do (and not just killing wildlife directly as Jason pointed out). We don't have a dog either but we do have lots of kangaroos, potaroos and betongs etc that have mostly been reared as orphans and love some human interaction (mostly of the food kind!).
I certainly wouldn't expect you to get rid of the cats you already have as I understand you love them, but as Jason also pointed out there are lots of other aminals that make good pets so perhaps when these kitties go to heaven you might consider another sort of pet.

snottiegobble says...
Jimmy,I suppose that doesnt include whale meat! Anyway we (Sea Shepherd) stopped em killing whales this year!

Shelly, I think you will have to buy a large square terracotta pot & use old fridge trays lined with fly screen to allow aeration & drainage.

Mick says...
Hi there instead of using 'kitty litter' from Coles why don't you try this product, it works for me.Soil Solver is a blend of clay and minerals that provide a complete and balanced range of nutrients needed for plant growth.
As the changes to the soil are permanent, it is the most eco friendly product on the market as each application is a lasting improvement to your soil health. Higher rates bring a greater result.
Soil Solver is a natural-ingredient based product created by soil solvers soil expert, Gavin Davis (Ph 0428 352 026).
Gavin has blended several natural compounds, clay and rock minerals, to created what’s needed in WA’s sandy soil for great garden plant growth.
Yes, you can put in a bag what you need in your garden sand to allow you to create a great loamy soil.
22.5 kg bags Now Available.

M Nash says...
I was in Perth for the first time not so long ago, I could not believe just how much sand there is and just how deep it is.
It amazed me looking at various road works,, Mountains of sand. Over here it would be mountains of clay (On the East)
I had some thoughts when looking at peoples gardens over there.
How does the sand hold anything you put into it considering it is bottomless?
If you had bed rock a few metres below, Sure you could change to sand over time.
I figured that raised garden beds with introduced soil would be the go and a perforated plastic sheet under them to slow down the leaching?
As for tropical trees? I considered that the poor buggers have just got to keep on feeding the sand for ever amen.

M Nash says...
It a fantastic problem and I dips my lid to all the sand gropers

Jimmy says...
Is soil solver better than bentonite?

grub says...
i live on a sandy hill and i used a product called sandy remedy formulated for our soils ,i also used bentolite clay on my mangoes here the link http://www.gardenersdirect.com.au/commerce/search/products/?product_id=SR001&merchant_id=2135

grub says...
grub says...
gidday snottie i never looked at
it like that but now you mention it the .think the lable sucked me in lol,but the wetting agent is still working after 12 months and a long summer
the bentolite clay was $25 for 40 kilo's diffently a better deal

mono says...
I picked up Bentonite and zeolite from Mirco Bros Shop. found them at www.mircobros.com.au they have everything

mono says...
25kg Bentonite was $18 and 10kg Zeolite was $14

Simon says...
Sustainable Outdoors also sell bentonite for $18 per 25Kg bags, plus a special offer of buy 10 and get 1 FREE. We recommend using 5 Kg per 1m2 which must be mixed to a depth of 25cm throughly. See our web site for details.

Simon says...
It all depends how deep you are mixing it. If it's only on the surface than I agree 1kg would be enough. At 5kg/meter this ratio has been worked out to be mixed in using a rotary hoe to a depth of 25cm as this is where the majority of the roots are. If you think of it like creating a sponge layer on the surface which will slow the water down as it moves through the soil profile, the longer you can hold it in there the more time the plants have to absorb it.

To answer your comment directly, if 1Kg was too boggy, you didn't mix it well enough. its like building a brick wall, you have even layers of bricks and cement layer by layer. You can not just put some cement down and throw some bricks on top and expect a brick wall.

Brad says...
gus feel free to contact me via my first name at anize dot org and I can put you in touch with some people that have built productive gardens from sand pits

Jo says...
Amanda, Can I ask how deep you dug your clay in? I am guessing you had to dig it very deep to provide nutrients and water to the roots of your fruit trees? 20 tonnes must have been some dig

Jo says...
That is fantastic info Amanda.

I am going to mix some clay into my sand and see what I come up with. Good advice to do it slowly to avoid trouble.

Thanks again

humusbeings says...
I was told by someone who knows their stuff the other day that the bentonite used for kitty litter is likely to have a lot of bad salts in it as it is a sodium bentonite... maybe check the labels before using it. The soil additives will be more reliable and safe to use, though.

Ben says...
hi guys i've had a quick read through some of the posts if anyone wants to know where there is a spot to get some white clay try down waterworks rd off armadale rd in forrestdale there is mountains of it there which got dug out of champion lakes the gate is open most days and there are often motorbike riders in there. ive got soil at home that didn't take water but we've recently bought a sheep manure bagging business and i tried some of our product on my front verge, i used the fine broken down sheep manure which i collected off the floor where we bag up i found it quite amazingly to be just like a soil wetting agent after i spread it across my verge i hosed it in as it bubbles up like wetting agent then just soakes into the ground and now about 3 monthes on my soil is still very accepting of water and the grass is growing very well there and has never grown there before.if anyone is interested in purchasing some sheep manure i have 100 litre bags of clean manure for $15each and can deliver free 10 bags or more in Perths south east metro area. send me an email if interested at Barbwire99@live.com

woonellup says...
you need calicium in the soil for the salt to be leached away, and perth soil are actually low in calicium amanda.

amanda says...
Hi Itdepends - some folk need to use Ag lime as they already have too much magnesium in their soil. Too much Mg causes problems like compaction and ponding. Have a read of the "soil wetting agent" topic - towards the end - Speedy explains it better than I can...he has sodic clay soil and higher Mg levels.

woonellup - yes that's true - I use liquid gypsum - mainly in summer. Have to be careful tho as I can induce an iron deficiency problem if I over do it.

amanda says...
Hey Frank - it's called Lime-induced chlorosis - and can be a problem for those living on top on limestone soils too... :-(

Wazzbat says...
Hi Nick. I have found sugarcane mulch to add to the organic matter of the soil as it breaks down and actually act to help the soil retain moisture. I do think though, that sometimes the water struggles to penetrate the mulch itself if it has been down for a little while and hasn't broken down enough yet. This is where weeping hose type retic underneath the mulch would probably work better than sprinkler type retic.

Where I put the kitty litter in a few weeks back, I have noticed the soil has become very much less sandy. I mixed it in with Rooster Booster and cow poop and now it is like thick black clay. Looks very healthy for the plants.

Don't expect results over night. I have been working on my soil for a couple of years now and am just starting to see results now. Worms and food scraps make a big difference also I think.

Good luck!

amanda says...
It's frustrating isn't it Nick.. :-( Can you get hold of some clay? (or soilsolver) I still have spots that need more work. If I let them dry out for too long they become re-repellent and I need to scratch the surface too.

It's almost like it has some kind force field!? lol. I often wonder if it builds up some kind of static electricity when it gets dried out...

In his book "Gardening Down Under" Kevin Handreck (CSIRO soil guru) explains that adding large amounts of organic matter to sandy soils can make them water repellant too - due to the waxy residues produced as the OM breaks down.

He recommends 10-15kg of clay/sqm and mixing it in the top 10cm of sand (roughly a 20% ratio) so 1 part clay to 3 parts sand. Then add lots of compost. Compost is great/better if u can make enough of it...you will be able to form humus much quicker. Humus is what our sands badly need. Clay protects humus. Humus improves soil structure.

Wazzbat - u are going well! :) I have used sugar cane mulch in my tomatoe patch this year and I am finding the water doesn't seem to get thru it either (and I have thinned it right out as well)...? I am thinking it's too fine cos when I use very coarse/large straw stems I don't get this problem.

If I could get motivated I would like to make a leaf litter compost/mulch. Forests don't seem to water repellent..?? ;-)

Brad says...
as for leaf litter stuff: my pile of mainly eucalypt detritus chucked through a mulcher, turned into rich black twiggy soil improver in 6 months. all i did was throw some blood and bone as i made the pile and cover with shadecloth and let sit all winter.

amanda says...
Nick - is the water repellant soil in your greenhouse? Is it in pots or in the ground?

amanda says...
Ok - so it's the potting mix Nick? If so - I must admit that I have had problems with many potting mixes - even the "premium" ones. I suspect there is too much woody stuff in them..? I was flooding the tree sacks (in my green house too..) only to find they were not wetting evenly. Same in my salad garden where I used all potting mix (and pig poo)

I can literally 'flood' my salad garden too - the water soaks in no problems - but when I scratch the surface it's only wet down to about 5mm. Is this the problem u are having too..?
Stuffed if I know where all the water goes!? :D It must have express channels somewhere??

(and the cheap potting mixes are just full of sand to make up their bulk) :-(

I actually added clay to them too :D
I mulched them with sphagnum moss (not wood chip) and leaf litter. I try not to let them dry out too much now. The tree sacks have excellent drainage - with holes all under and around/up them (from Daleys :)

I only give the slow growing sensitive subtropicals (eg: lychee!, jaboticaba, longon) blood and bone now - about a heaped teaspoon every month and seasol. So far so good..

I don't know if this helps...

(i have actually bought some compost to fix the salad garden - even after claying it - it's still too hard core)

amanda says...
That's weird isn't it Nick? You would think that they would be better off in the greenhouse!? Is it a glass one or a shade house one?
Are there any little flying insects living in the soil in there?

I don't know, apart from suggestions above.. :-(

B.Rise says...
I've lived most of life in Perth on the empty sands and thought I might contribute my "tuppence worth." Frm AGWA info:
"The hydrophobic compounds (waxes, alkanes, long chained fatty acids) that are left behind in the breakdown of organic matter are a major cause of water repellence in non-wetting soils." Their solution is to add clay in order to change the soil structure - and it undoubtedly works, just as wetta-soil works. However it has the same problem: what you add will wash away!. Although it is the breaking down of organic matter that seems the cause of the problem, it is the lack of biological activity that actually allows the creation of the impermeable layer. Creating a healthy environment for earthworms, mycorrhiza and beneficial micro-organisms is the way to provide a long-term solution to the problem. Rule number one: a healthy garden is a complex ecosystem. Make sure that the compost is properly matured, keep it (and organic mulching materials) slightly away from stems and have fun! Your water repellency problems will be but a distant memory.

amanda says...
So true B.Rise. Can't wait until they come up with the "waxy residue eating" bacteria they are working on! :)

The trouble with a lot of Perth and north is that it is very dry now...and many people have changed to drippers these days. Drippers will allow deep vertical watering but poor horizontal watering in sands.

We need more moisture to keep the biological activity going and encourage more fungi too. If I could afford to run impact sprinklers in my garden beds, thru summer, then my problems would be a lot less.

B.Rise says...
To Nick - the soil here is, as you would expect, heavy clay. Interestingly the gardening advice is similar to that for Perth: add heaps of organic matter! In sand, to build up the soil and limit the drainage; in clay, to break up the soil and enhance drainage. Isn't nature wonderful? Alternatively, as one mate says, just garden 'above the ground.'
To Amanda - I agree with both of your points. However, I will add that I found it possible to successfully grow flower gardens and edible plants on minimal water (hand watering only) in Manning and Doubleview by creating micro-climates and experimenting with different composts. Keep up the fun!

Peter says...
Maybe plants have to be grown in 1m long tubes prior to planting in the ground to train the root system to get very deep. The soil temperature in 1m depths should be moderate enough and hopefully they spread from there.
I have not long enough experience to say if it works, probably plants with taproots are more suitable than shallow rooted plants with this system, but you never know.

Nick says...
Ive got the exact same frustrating problem, apparently soil like ours over time develop thin "passages" where the water passes through, leaving the soil around it bone dry (if that makes any sense :P). I did a little experiment with a pomegranate seedling grown in a plastic food container and it confirmed that- the water would drain easily but only the very first and last centimetre of soil would be wet!

Brad says...
amanda: ever tried to get one of these guys to call you?
http://www.beyondgardens.com.au/

B.Rise says...
After the "Gero Flats" comment, I'm not sure just where you are located in Geraldton. I had been guessing that you are on sand very near the ocean.
Firstly, the description of your watering and the behaviour of the water sounds exactly like typical water repellancy: it looks like the water is soaking in, whereas it is actually running off. It can take a while to find out exactly where it is going. As an interesting aside some ancient Mediterranean civilisations actually used this property of their soils to engineer run-off into underground storage systems.
Your "wondering" about using stones as mulch sounds likely: the soil under stone mulches stays quite cool and the mulch does reduce evaporation.
Secondly, one of your comments really caught my attention - referring to the strong winds in the area. Winds will do more to destroy most plants than mere drought and might explain some of your difficulties. Wind-breaks are essential in your area of the world.
Thirdly, if you are trying to grow stone-fruit in the area it might be worth checking out the particular varieties chilling requirements. (Permies are likely to be managing their properties by giving preference to "best suited" plant types). If you are keen and would like to do some historical research I believe there was a fellow called James Lander who, in the late 19th century, had a successful orchard in the Northampton area using some seemingly unorthodox methods.
I hope this is of some use.

amanda says...
Hey Brad et al...I think I may have solved the problem! I got annoyed and decided to go all out with the clay and just dumped a few big buckets of crumbled clay onto a small test bed - and blasted it in with the hose....

Have been away for a week and just put the sprinkler on it (so it's been dried right out) - and hey presto - the water soaked in no problems!! Yay!

I must have needed a hell of a lot more than what I thought (maybe adding it as a liquid diluted it out too much? or made it too fine?)

The bed is good - not sticky/clayey at all.

I am going to try this in my veg patch now - just to make sure :)

John says...
Stumbled across this looking for some Bentonite.
So - to summarise what I have seen... I get some Bentonite (will probably try local stockfeeds), spread over soil (trying to get around 5%), turn in, add zeolite (rock minerals), water well, then keep my fingers crossed?
Does that sound about right?
I have been slowly trying to improve my soil but it just goes back to sand whenever I turn my back for a few minutes...

amanda says...
SG - what's coffee rock? Must admit I did get quality clay (for house bricks) It's crap to work with until it's weathered in the sun and rain - after that it becomes fairly brittle. My stock pile has been in the open for 4yrs now. The top layers crumble really well.

Sounds good John. U need a fair bit in our WA sands - and u need clay to hang onto the organics too. If u read this whole thread u will pick up some interesting tips :)

snottiegobble says...
Yes Wazzbat, & some of it is nearing the stage of becoming real rock, maybe in about half a million years it will be!
I will have to continue persevering using bentonite & wetting granules.
" Come on puss, drink some more water!"

snottiegobble says...
Coffee rock takes some soaking & the stuff I am familiar with has layers of different colours that vary a lot in texture so it could never be used for pottery.In the Otways, Vic it lies under fine grey sand, one hell of a contrast!

John says...
Anyone have a recommendation for a good place to get some rock minerals from?

John says...
BTW - I can tell you that Wesfeeds in Bentley does not do Bentonite. Will report back when I find somewhere close that does.

snottiegobble says...
Woolworths in Eaton sell 15litre bags of kitty litter for $5.80. Presuming litres are the same as kgs in this case, its quite a good buy, or is it?

snottiegobble says...
Humusbeings, why is kitty litter bentonite not the right stuff to use??

snottiegobble says...
Someone please tell me what is wrong with using Kittylitter bentonite in the garden??

snottiegobble says...
Thanks John. Thats interesting about the Catsan clumping clay, it may have some chemical or mineral in it to make it clump so not worth the risk anyway!

snottiegobble says...
Thanks John, interesting info!

Jim says...
Hi John

I'm sorry that you are having problems with Gardeners direct. I only have used them once, and the order went smoothly.

As Jimmy has said, please let everyone know how they handled your issue.

Jim

snottiegobble says...
An extra zero can really fire us up cant it? Do they dispatch further out do you know?

Jimmy says...
Mircos sell both sodium and calcium bentonite, they just buy whats cheapest on the open markets.

sandy says...
Hello
Bentonite is great for perth soils, but on its own it is not enough.
As sand has no structure the clay(Bentonite) is unable to hold the sand together enough to hold both moisture & nutrient.
You need to use a combination of minerals. See SAND-FIXA

ALso yes Bentonite comes in a few grades, the cheaper versions are usually of the calcium variety which is fine if you want to alter the ph balance of you sand...you need to check this

John says...
Well - looks like some people have realised they can get some free publicity for their products here...
I don't mind, so long as it is helpful.
Sandy (very appropriate name) - your website is completely useless.
Joy - yours is better but, while I am no chemist I am pretty sure that sodium (Na) is not the same as salt (NaCl) so that sodium bentonite is not salty clay.

nick giancola says...
sory
got carried away, regular feed of NPK BLUE does not go astray

Charles cant spell says...
NPK is not a solution nor is it remotely helpful for the ground water or soil life. Try your best to avoid concentrated man made fertilisers. Without good soil, as you say its gutless shit, very little of the NPK blue you are puting on actually gets to plants, most leeches into ground water and water ways.

While it looks like the old market gardeners knew what they where doing (as they grew stuff) it was at great waste and destruction, pooring copious amounts of water (3-4 waterings a day) and NPK blue onto straight sand and growing veggies is not healthy or ecologically freindly. :) Rant over.

nick giancola says...
Hi Guys. I would like to put in my 2 bobs worth. I am 57 years old and my dear ol father [italian] always had a large vegie patch in his back yard here in WA. He never used any chemicles or sprays on his crops [i reckon the original GREENY] any way he started off with a very sandy patch of sand and added Sheep Manure all the time, after a few years the soil was perfect for growing ANYTHING! I beleave that organic
fertilisers are the way to go ,

Mike says...
That was a bit much.Gardeners contribute very little to excess nutrients and bad water quality.Excess clearing of native veg. especially around streams would contibute as much to poor water quality as anything else.Heavy mulching with all trimmings, grass and lots extra can minmise fertliser needed to very small amounts and make it last longer.It can't always provide key missing elements in your soil.

Glennis says...
I dont live in WA but i use this stuff . It might be useful .
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/humates/nts-liquid-humus.html

amanda says...
That's strange woonellup...I have two piles of deep subsoil clay (from brickworks) for "claying" in my garden - and it's a common agricultural practice for WA farms with water repellant sands - recommended by CSIRO and the Agriculture Dept?

My brown clay is slightly acid - and my pink clay is slighty alkaline.

I cannot grow much without the addition of a lot of this clay. It works brilliantly, here.

I agree the Mg and Na in excess are a problem tho. I won't use sodium bentonite because I already have a salinity problem here.

The appropriate clay can add a vey long term supply of potassium to sandy soils. Not all clays are the same tho are they...

Mike says...
Amanda poor husbandry is probably responsible for many deficiencies especially with antagonistic effects.The mulch I use is from plants grown on soil deficient in Fe,Mo,Mg and other nutrients like my soil so the deficiency doesn't get addressed.I can almost see the roots 'snapping' to get at fertliser with these nutrients in when applied.....like a hungry dingo on a T-bone.The plants respond straight away.

nick giancola says...
Hi Guys.
Our soil here on the coastal belt,ie from the coast to approx 20ks inland is not soil But dry sand that does not allow water to seep in.Forget all these fancy soil conditioners and the like. You need to turn SAND in SOIL. The way to do it is to dig in sheep and or cow manure into your beds all the time you prepare the beds for planting, you cannot pot in too much and there is no smell or flies.
I started off with sandy soil and over the years have developed a Soil that even TV gardeners would be proud to have.My recipe for Perth soils is plenty of sheep and or cow manure dug in regular and regular feed of NPK blue and heaps of water and you will not be far wrong with any tree or vegetable.
AND NO I DO NOT SELL THESE MANURES.Heh!

amanda says...
woonellup...it's not so much about what the clay does and does not contain. The point of adding clay is to vastly increase the ion exchange capacity of the sand.

WA sand has next to zero exchange capacity, it is majorly porous. It is impoverished. It is water repellant. It is severely lacking in organic matter.

Yes nick - we can all add tonnes of manure and grow..I agree...but it's like chasing your tail..without the clay content - your sand will not "hold on" to this organic matter. As soon as you stop adding it...within a year or two you will back to square one.

I cost me $50 today to 2/3 fill the back of my Hilux with ultra-degraded pig poo. I manured about 12 of my 80 trees with this...do the math?

This organic matter will vanish and need to be replaced in around 4 months...because that is what happens in sand - with no clay content.

woonellup - you need to understand how the H+ ions work here. And that is what soil pH is all about.

I don't agree with some stuff u are saying here at all, no offence.

So, u are a farmer - what's your 'take' on organic matter?

amanda says...
Hi woonellup, ah - that makes sense now - if u go back to my post on 24th Dec - I pretty much have found the same thing - so we are on the same page here :)

I also agree that too much organics can also be a problem in sand....I have found that manure from horse and sheep aggravate the problem, cow a little less so - but pig manure to be excellent. I think this is likely due to the digestive systems of these different animals and how "thorough" they are? Maybe diet also.

I have also found the "standard" recommendation for a thick layer of wood chip to be the worst thing for aggravating repellancy. It really only breaks down in the winter period when it is soaked..then yes -the waxy residues build up over a dry summer. Dripper irrigation means much of the mulch stays bone dry too.

I am actually going to trial much larger chunks of wood (as a "mulch", around my fruit trees) this season. I have many critters that this would suit (loads of native cockroaches, slaters, for eg, they play a big role in semi-arid zone recycling of nutrients) My reasoning being - the chunks would provide shade for the soil, they allow the valuable leaf litter to settle - and not blow away, they protect the soil from the wind, they can be easily removed for manuring, weeding - and then put back. They would break down so slowly and not contribute to the wax problem..they would save me a lot of $ in mulch.

What do u think woonellup? (we have half Perth rainfall, hotter temps, stronger winds) I passed on the idea of rocks because I am concerned as to how hot they might get. Living mulch has been difficult with the amount of wind blown weed seeds invading.

I am also very interested in Biochar - as it also "holds onto" ions etc, also..

Mg is also a problem, in excess, as it causes soils to collapse and compact easily - which only aggravates water repellancy. Some of the previous research re: Mg/Ca research is being reviewed now though...

I find getting my soil to form a good "crumb" structure the hardest thing of all. It takes time for the clay and organics to settle in...I farm worms, for the garden, to help with this part. It needs patience and care and minimal digging/interference.

Too much clay and organics can also "hold up" the Na in the topsoil - the beauty of sand is it's flushability -and our scheme water is Class 3 saline here :-( But then organics and clay help to buffer pH etc. It's a bit of a conundrum isn't it!? ;)

(ps - applications of gypsum will help to displace the Mg - and the Na - from the clay..)

amanda says...
That's good to know Wazzbat - did u have any problems with your leaf margins burning with the kitty litter?

(A relative has that awful Bassendean sand (in Rivervale)..even my sand here is better than that..not all sands are the same hey!?)

Gypsum is a wonderful natural product and is just as useful in sand as it is in clay - have u tried it in your sand?

Nick says...
Agar agar which is derived from seaweed is used as a wetting agent, does seasol do a similar job?

amanda says...
woonellup - are u still there? I decided to check out the kitty litter at the supermarket today - and only saw an attapulgite clay one...I found this reference...

http://www.attapulgite.org/adsorbent.html

It does contain Mg - and aluminum too..

I tried to research more about clay, in general, a long time back in this thread..but there are many different types and even the research indicated that we don't know all there is to know about clay yet.

I have likely been lucky with my clay. Is it worth getting a source tested (if u are going to use a lot) do u think? And what would u test for?

I also found a bag of paper-pellets (kitty litter) - recycled, no additives or chemicals - I am going to see what the worms think of them? ;)

woonellup says...
Google APAL ( http://www.apal.com.au/), Albrecht,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Albrecht, http://www.healthyag.com/albrecht.html) claying sandy soils,( http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/PC_92461.html, loam soil or loamy soil.( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loam)
I find most of what said what I have found on my farm, hence the soil model I use.
I have found applying lime after claying to be beneficial. Not normally recommended and have heard of problems with high Mg levels after claying.
The Albrecht model is the only soil test that comes back , with different recommendations for different soil, and would tell me good paddocks from bad paddocks every time.

The west Australian test came back almost all the same recommendation. This was bare clay, nothing grew right through to very sandy infertile sands!
note the correct spelling of albrecht

Mike says...
I am a gypsum sceptic as well after naively using it with abandon as a clay breaker.It did not work of course even when I upped the rate.The tees seemed to suffer.A number of authoritative references advise that gypsum use can lead to Fe,Mg and Mn deficiencies in plants.

Diana says...
Gypsum does not work on all types of clay (it works well on mine). See gardening Australia fact sheet:

Heavy sticky clay soil is difficult to cultivate. The traditional method of breaking down clay is to incorporate lots of organic matter into the soil and to add gypsum, a powdery natural mineral (calcium sulphate). This changes the soil structure from big clods to a fine, easily worked texture which makes gardening easier and improves drainage. Gypsum also releases minerals within the soil structure from the clay particles so that they become available for plant nutrition. It is important to use natural gypsum, not the white builder's gypsum, for this purpose.

However, not all clays respond well to gypsum. To find out which ones do, a simple test known as the Emerson Dispersion Test can be done.

EMERSON DISPERSION TEST: Drop a piece of dry soil aggregate, about 6mm across, into a glass of rainwater. Don't move the glass - just watch what happens to it after an hour and then after 24 hours. If it slowly disperses into the water, first forming a halo of clay particles around the aggregate, it will respond to the addition of gypsum to the soil. If it does nothing at all in the water, it would be a waste of time adding gypsum to the soil as it won't respond. The greater the cloudiness of the water and the more rapidly it develops, the greater will be the benefit of adding gypsum to the soil and the higher the amount needed.

If you have soils which respond to the Emerson dispersion test, add gypsum at a rate of 0.5 - 1kg per square metre, digging it in well. Read the label and stick to the recommended amount. Too much gypsum will spoil the soil structure and a slurry may result.

It's a good idea to add lots of organic matter as a mulch after digging in the gypsum, or to grow and dig in a green manure crop.

REFERENCE: Handreck, K., Gardening Down-Under, CSIRO Australia 1993.

amanda says...
That's true Diana :) But bear in mind we are talking about sandy soils that we are adding clay to here...and also how gypsum works in purely sandy soils - (with no added clay)

woonellup suggests getting the right clay to start with (as we are "importing" it here) - then there shouldn't be the need for gypsum to start with...(have I got that right woonellup?)

amanda says...
Also Mike - I appreciate the Cairns sands may have similiar challenges - but the rainfall of Cairns compared with Perth is drastically different. This has implications with Na build up.

And even their scheme water is likely vastly superior to ours :(

amanda says...
Just about ready for bed woonellup..but I would love to get my hands on u next time I get to Perth!? :) There is so much conflicting info out there that it's not funny really. U can see from this thread even...?

I have had to teach myself basically. There is no soil science help around. It's been trial and error and a damn hard path, to be frank. It's also why I have gaps in my knowledge.

Had my soil tested - but there was no help to actually Interpret the results? (and yes - I went to Landmark, CRT, the Horticulturalists etc..)

The water tester only wanted to sell me a magnetic thing to put on my mains pipe. It was so very frustrating.

I am from a science and biology background - so the combo of the soil chem and the soil biology is really interesting to me - and I just don't get to meet other gardeners to explore this with..?

I feel strongly about good soil husbandry. It's what the next generation will inherit from us, after all.

Mike says...
Amanda the NQ coastal sands in the 450km from Townsville to Port Douglas are very different from those of the SW.They do however have saline groundwater,almost nonutrients, strong water repulsion,very low oragic content and a 6 month dry season with very little rain.

Mike says...
Amanda, friends of mine who are even keener gardeners than I battle the same problems spoken about in this thread 1000's of km away.They try very hard to get their soil right so the fruits of their labours can be enjoyed.

Rahaidi says...
Thanks to all for all this info. I have been following these discussions for awhile now and have appreciated all your comments and findings. There seems to be a lot o science involved in getting Perth soil right. If only Perth gardeners knew the wonders of soil amendments that would save a lot of outlay towards wetting agents, fertilisers and even the old african black beetle on the lawn problems (when infact its not them at all). I too have been conned in all this and with experience have reverted in getting the soil right in the first place.

There should be more push towards using the right clays as soil amendments for Perth gardeners. I wished I knew all this from the start. I have had a lot of success now using soil amendments (clays, humates). All this with good layer of composted coarse mulch from the loppers (mulch net) put onto annually has worked wonders. Soil profile is now really good. A lot of earthworms underneath all the material. After each layer of composted mulch, a handful of clay is thrown on top.

Keep up the good advice and tips guys!

woonellup says...
amanda, i have a video of a advanced soil course, also some books.
all the people you went to, i walked away from many years ago

as i said, send a soil to APAL, you will not regret it.

i dont feel working with soil is that hard, since albrecht model came to my life.

some nice rain here in perth, just enough to cool the air.

woonellup says...
yellow sand does have clay, just missing the minerals

amanda says...
woonellup - do u have any thoughts on the actual size of wood chip mulch to use? The local arid zone permie also suggests a slightly thinner layer for here...to allow any rain penetrate (our showers often brief)

I am also going to test out much chunkier mulch than what is the standard type. The local supply is tree prunings (also see below) put thru a huge mulcher machine. I am finding it is too mixed with very fine bits/dust that makes water difficult to penetrate also? I am not happy with it anyway.

I like big, more uniform, bits as I notice the valuable leaf litter collects around them and doesn't get blown away - but also allows for the soil to be shaded and protected. It also provides a great home for my vast number of native cockroaches that feed on decaying wood -and a part of the nutrient recycling system.

Also - I notice that the Ag Dept suggests certain woods increase water repellance too...I am pretty sure that my local chips are mostly banksia and acacia. It seems they may be offenders in this too... :-(

Have u also found that sheep manure can increase water repellance? (another factor the AG Dept mentioned also) I have pig poo to be much better in this regard?

Let's hope that the work they are doing on finding a bacteria, that breaks down these waxy residues, pans out :)

Certainly I have found, here, that I have needed a great deal more clay than what has been suggested too?

And it's in weather like this week that the clay really makes a difference also...the beds I have really loaded up with clay are doing really well at keeping the plants happy in the unbelieveable heat.

woonellup says...
hi Amanda, not really a mulch specialist.
I will say, have a look at your bush and recreate that, like nature meant to happen. branches on top and finer material at the bottom, some from break of the wood above.
sheep manure is bad for water repellent build up and I have experienced that myself.
I believe we already have the microbes that break down the wax from organic break down, it just needs a wet soil to survive, hence the correct clay at the correct rate so that your soil stays wet, meaning the microbes stay alive.
farmers use up to 50 kgs per sq metre. this clay based product will also contain silt as well and that’s a natural part of soils.
I think clay needs to be 10% with a similar level for silt. you will find this also from goggling loam soils etc.
that would be a 20 kg rate for a product that is 50% clay and 50% silt. Finding a product to fit that spec could be hard, hence the high rates farmer use to get what they want.

amanda says...
If u are interested woonellup - this is what I started with..and now today (5yrs later) I don't think I could have achieved this result without clay to be honest... :)
You can see how sandy it is :-(

It's even helped certain types of natives too.

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2

amanda says...
lol...thanks Nick :) But I honestly don't post the pics to show off or anything - more to inspire others that anything is possible...especially when u get the basics right...?

My husband works FIFO so I have done all of this on my own. Carted the clay, the mulch, the sleepers, laid the retic etc. I have rarely been able to afford outside help. But it has been ultra-rewarding now that I see pics like this for myself!?

I had never laid any retic in my life b4 I came here, for eg...? Never had a wastewater treatment system, never grown fruit trees (only veg) never lived in a "droughty" + sandy climate. Never owned my own land b4.

Had to "study" heaps! Windbreaks, salinity, retic, fert's...? We all have the ability I feel..?

U need to be fit though and have the time. Money can be limiting factor too.

I think I have mentioned this b4 though (and I am sure woonellup would agree here?) * Get your soil tested *

It's worth every cent. As K.Handreck states - without a soil test: "it's like driving at night with no headlights"..?

And I even got my water tested too...and that was a disturbing revelation on its own :(

Once I understood these results - things/problems made a lot more sense, here. I stopped losing plants (I would calculate my plant losses in the $100's of dollars - over the acerage?)

Highly experienced gardeners may not need soil testing tho..? Would be interested to know about this?

Forums like this are valuable also. U are in the right place ;-) There are some very talented people here...

amanda says...
also - the IN-puts into what u see there are high and that's on-going. Yes I have 75-50% less rainfall than Perth - but u may all looking down the barrel of high water costs too guys - and soon, I suspect?

It costs money to desalinate water..? How many millions/billions to set up the desal plants in Perth recently? U will see it in your water bills soon enough?

All good if u only have 100sqm to water ..or a good quality bore perhaps..?
I wont grow stone fruit again..it's a luxury in our climate I feel? In fact - I won't be growing any fruit trees that needs a high input again...(unless I can afford an exclusion orchard)

Personally - I am going to change my taste buds..? :D

It's perhaps time that west aussies looked to different food crops..? A big break away from tradition perhaps...

(ps - yes I know that's not a positive outlook at all. I hope I am proved wrong tho...I just don't think i will be tho :) WA is getting hotter and drier...the population is exploding...why do we need a de-sal plant to start with? U have to ask yourself that question really?)

amanda says...
Oh. That's interesting Concerned Citizen..? If that's the case is it "right thing to do" for someone to declare a commercial interest on a public Forum then?

amanda says...
That's true SG :) And I am thinking a little bit of that product in the top inch or two of my tree sacks might also help with their water repellance also?

(having some problems with this on day 9 of heatwave - despite daily waterings?) It's premium mix - but I am still not convinced it's as "premium" as I would like ;)

Not sure I want to risk it with my heavy clay.

I wonder if anyone has used it in pots..?

Gus says...
That is really interesting Amanda.

I wonder if the clay perhaps has temperature moderating qualities beyond its water retention?
Maybe just the act of being planted in the ground as opposed to being in a pot helps to keep the roots cool. I know above ground pools tend to heat up a lot more than below ground pools as they get "zapped" from all angles and don't have the insulation to protect against temperature fluctuation.
Might me interesting to do some pots with clay and other without and see if there is a difference?

Gus says...
What is a strawberry tower anyway?
Are they just like those ceramic pots with holes in the sides?

Anthony says...
I've got bentonite clay prety cheap from Mirco Bros, as well as Zeolite.
Works great in sandy soil if you dig it through, really bulks up Perths gutless soil, retains a lot more water too.
Doesn't need a lot to make a difference.

amanda says...
Yea that's probably true SG...I was also a bit slack and didn't seal the tower either (terracotta)...I'd better remedy that next time... ;)

It would look good as a succulent tower perhaps... :)

John says...
Any suggestions for a decent supplier of pea-straw or lucerne straw for adding organics/nitrogen to a vegie patch?
I am looking at about a trailer-load worth.

John says...
Thanks SG but I can't just go wandering the countryside asking random farmers for leftover hay - although it sounds like a nice drive, if rather Quixotic.
I used 'garden straw' previously and got a pretty decent crop of wheat (I think). No big deal - just turned in. I think pea shoots would be even better as a green manure.

Julie says...
Feedman in Kelmscott have oat and wheat straw for $9, barley straw for $10.

Any views on which might be the best buy?

amanda says...
It's Official WA! We have the "worst water repellant soils you can find" (according to the experts...) So what do we do about it?

For me, I am red-loaming everything right now. Found a 'clean' source of quality red-loam ($10 cubic metre - cheap!) with a pH of slightly acidic (perfect for our alkaline sands)

This pic is one veg patch that had a heap of organic matter (OM) from spud growing - and it became shockingly repellant over it's fallow summer.

I threw in heaps of worms and put 1 cubic metre of red loam over it (> 1 tonne) which sealed it right off then started watering it...

It took 2 weeks for the OM underneath to get evenly moist and stay that way. I then scratched in dynamic lifter, a few bags of compost, and a lot of fine cocopeat thru the 2 inches of red loam on top, only.

I am ready to plant now - so I guess we will see how it goes..? Lots of good stuff under this loam too.

I have put red loam over everything in my garden that is water repellant and that I suspect has a load of O.Matter that is far too high for sands...

Interestingly - I am finding that my own observations regarding the size of our mulching materials does matter...A LOT.

We are now being advised to avoid straw and hay becuase it aborbs the water, prevents percolation to the soil...and then the water evaporates off in the heat..

Wish they had told me this 5yrs ago...grrr!?

I would lay money that the next big advice will be to embrace liquid feeding, in repellant sands, like compost tea, seasol, recycled water, fish emulsion etc...?

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Brendan says...
Is that at your place amanda? I can't see any pegs/stays along the garden edges?, I thought it may need some support like mine :-)

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Brendan says...
Hey amanda, who wiped out the passenger tail-light and back panel on the ute? :-)
The other half I presume? :-)

snottiegobble says...
Whats the other side of the ute like Amanda?? :-)

Brendan says...
Hi amanda, I threw just about anything in the bottom of the garden first, namely old dead coconuts & fronds :-) I've also added el-cheapo potting mix, SAND, compost, and Wayne has delivered heaps of 'garden soil'. (in his ute).

That brownish colour in the pic is coco peat, I bought about 8 x 90L blocks.

What is that 'stuff' in the back of your ute? And if you buried mulch, don't forget about the C/N ratio :-)

Mike says...
Amanda the word loam is just about having the ideal sand to silt to clay content ie 2 to 2 to 1 which on average is best for plants.The humus content is often higher in loams than other soils.