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persimmon rootstock what do diggers use

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allybanana starts with ...
I have a couple of diggers nightigale persimmons, and am wondering if i can plant them in a spot with deep water but dry on top, i have contected them a week ago about it and am still waiting on a reply. If they were Daleys persimmons i would go ahead as they use D. kaki rootstock which is quite deeprooted and has better drought resistance then the american persimmon which many people use as roostock, does anyone know what diggers use? The bark has little white round spots and the scion has little white oval spots.
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Eden S-East NSW
10th October 2010 9:05pm
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Jason says...
I have two and only the one from Flemming's grows (and not all that well) the one from Daleys never did anything. I'm not sure if they both have different rootstocks but that might explain the difference in my trees
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Jason10
Portland, Vic
11th October 2010 12:47am
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Anna says...
Mine is from Garden World bought 10 years ago. It has given me 500 huge fruits every year. The only thing I have done is mulch heavily and potash at flowering time.
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Melbourne
11th October 2010 7:56am
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Jason says...
wow.... Anna how much does it grow each year?. I've had my trees for well... 5 years for one that's about 6 foot and the small one might be 10 years old and only about 2 feet tall lol. Clearly I fail at persimmon growing
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Jason10
Portland, Vic
11th October 2010 8:49am
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allybanana says...
I would be very interested to know jason and the other now deleted person who had a Daleys and another persimmon that is doing better, does the surviver have bark with much darker squarish scales (american persimmon) or scales simlar to the scales above the graft (japanese persimmon).

And Also how wet were they both i have read that japanese persomon like Daleys use, is more Drought tolerant wheras American persimon is more bog tolerant.

After reading others experience, I think maby i should grow a nightingale from Daleys and a nightingale from Diggers to hedge my bets.
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Eden S-East NSW
11th October 2010 1:12pm
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Fabiola says...
I don't know what kind of root-stocks are Daleys using, but I have two very healthy persimmon trees from them. A Fuyu and a Nightingale. The Fuyu now 4,5 years old and the first crop- only a few - was in 2009 and much more in this year . But I'm having a problem. The Nightingale is 1-1,5 years younger then the Fuju. In the last year there were 6-7 little fruits on it, but all of them was gone quite soon. The tree is very healthy looking and I had no idea what did go wrong. At the same time the Fuju also dropped some of it's fruits, but we still had about 30, so I don't complain.
Do anyone has a guess what did cause this loss? Having little ones on the tree again, I really would like to keep them.
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Fabiola
Sydney
13th October 2010 3:36pm
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allybanana says...
I have heard being a bit to generouse with the NPK around flowering can cause fruit drop also drying out maby also the tree is just a bit young.
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Eden S-East NSW
28th October 2010 9:56pm
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Jason says...
I didn't see your message before I'll have a look at the bark under the graft on the good one and the dud one :)
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Jason
Portland
29th October 2010 12:32am
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allybanana says...
Fabiola, in his book, Louis Glowinski mentions that nightingale is a mixed bag, some say it is the same as Hachiya others say it is another variety. He also mentions that hachiya can be prone to fruit drop in hot weather and some say it needs a pollinator.

Perhaps pollination just helps fruit retention in some climates. My family grows great nightingale in Canberra and they have stinking hot summers. They also have a few varieties of persimmon and the nightingale is seedy so is probably pollinated. Maybe a pollinator would help.

I am on the look out for dia dia maru, which I have read is a good pollinator, and it is earlier maturing that my others, it is also supposed to have a different more spicy flavour. It may put seeds in my fuyu though, but positively, I have heard it also helps with fuyu fruit set. The seeds are not that big i can handle them, good exercise for the tongue.

In reference to the rootstock question originally posted, my Daleys nightingale arrived and it was identical to the diggers one, above the graft, below the graft, the graft style and placement high up the rootstock and the white paint on the scion, interesting, I wonder who the supplier is.

In conclusion, even though i have messaged them a number of times and got zero response, I strongly suspect diggers also use D. kaki rootstock.
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Eden S-East NSW
29th October 2010 10:49am
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J says...
allybana, Flemings and Murray valley nurseries have Dia Dia Maru listed in their varieties.

This thread is of quite a bit of interest to me. I currenty have 3 (hachiya, flat seedless and Nightingdale) astringent persimmons from Daleys and I can't plant them in the ground till next winter.

I've transplanted 1 into a larger pot (just two days ago)because it was ina rather small pot but the other two didn't want to budge from their current pots and I was worried about damaging the plant root system. So I left them in their current decent sized pots. Can any one advise me if I am doing the right thing by leaving these in pots till next winter?
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J
belgrave
29th October 2010 11:38am
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Original Post was last edited: 29th October 2010 11:42am
au0rey says...
Anna, I am very interested to find out more about your so productive persimmon tree. Garden world's not far from me.

What variety is it? Astringent or non-astringent? How tall and wide is it now? I have been looking for one for a while but no luck.
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Melbourne
30th October 2010 2:54pm
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j says...
I picked up a 3 foot tall hyakumo Astringent persimmon tree today. It seems to be setting flowers as well. I got my own question answered - doesn't seem like leaving them in pots for a bit matters.
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J
 
30th October 2010 8:49pm
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allybanana says...
It sounds a great score J, and in good condition, I am also an astringent persimmon fan and not just for the divine taste they have when fully ripe, the astringency knocks the fruit fly around. Last year I got bombed with fruit fly, the peaches were brown maggoty soup inside, whereas the astringent flat seedless persimmon had fruit fly sting marks but they never took, there were tiny bumps under the sting marks and that was it.

I noticed some big flemmings hyakumo and dia dia maru at willow park nursery in Canberra but the $85 price tage made me hesitate and they were bare rooted, I bought a potted cheaper nightingale instead. I checked the hard copy flemmings catalogue they had at the nursery and I seem to remember hyakuma needs a pollinator dai dai maru I think was recommended. I hope you love persimmon as your collection might just get bigger, one could wait and see if your others do the job first. Alternatively, it is always possible to graft on a branch later for pollination, as not much is needed.

I also fond it interesting that Flemmings class hachiya and nightingale as the same, a mid season variety http://www.flemings.com.au/fruit_listing.asp?variety=Persimmon whereas you bought these two as separate varieties from Daleys and they list hachiya as a self fertile late season variety requiring hot summers http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/search.php?q=Persimmon I can see what Glowinski was talking about in his book, persimmon varieties in Australia are definitely confusing. Hopefully good pictures on the my edibles websites will help clear up he confusion.

As for your question regarding potential damage from leaving the Daleys persimmons in their pots, I personally go for moving to bigger pots, as if I am busy and miss a day of watering it wont set back the root system. Also becoming root bound may damage the tap root as the Daleys rootstock is Kaki Seedling http://www.daleysfruit.com.au/search.php?q=Persimmon , This variety having a decent tap root http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/119517/persimmon-growing.pdf (scroll to rootstocks,) Glowinski recommends being careful not to damage the tap root. Others recommend cutting it off to encourage lateral roots http://www.thebegavalley.org.au/persimmon.html. I personally advocate leaving the tap root intact as although the short term gains might be better with more laterals a tap root neared the water table gives better long-term drought resilience.

Damaging the taproot is less of an issue if one is buying a bare rooted plant or one bought bare rooted by the nursery and then potted, as the taproot has already been busted and some of them have other rootstocks that do not have much of a tap root anyway.

Here is an interesting article on persimmon rootstocks it might make you glad you got your hachiya and nightingale on D. kaki rootstock
http://www.avocadosource.com/CAS_Yearbooks/CAS_25_1940/CAS_1940_Pg_43-44.pdf

Here is also a great article on fruit drop and pollination, it is by NSW agriculture a government research organisation, the article is written for persimmon farmers, so I think itís pretty credible. http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/119517/persimmon-growing.pdf

I have contacted Flemmings in regard to their rootstock type and I was told someone should get back to me Wednesday. I will also ask about the pollination needs of their hyakumo and hachiya.
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Eden S-East NSW
1st November 2010 8:52pm
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j says...
Allybanana, thank you for the wealth of info/links you have provided! I've got some reading to do tonight.

With most of my fruit tree's that require cross pollination for better fruit set I end up getting multiple varieties. So right now all I need is Dia Dia maru and I'm all set for Astringent persimmons! Please let me know what flemmings have to say about their rootstock and availability of Dia Dia Maru, Allybanana.
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J
 
2nd November 2010 10:38am
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allybanana says...
I got a message back from Flemmings "it is company policy not to disclose any rootstock information".

At least with Daleys you know what your getting and they do sell dai dai maru by the way thats were i plan to get mine from. There is an even earlier astringent variety out there somewere, Korokuma, supposed to be as early as Izu and is good for drying i would love to know were to source one.
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Eden S-East NSW
3rd November 2010 3:34pm
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kert says...
Dept of Agric. NSW requires that information be disclosed,you know.
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sydney
3rd November 2010 3:46pm
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allybanana says...
Kert, I would love to know were that law is officially located and what it is called so I can quote it next time. Does is apply to a Vic company who sells to NSW retail nurseries, rather than primary producers. One probably would have to go about challenging the Flemings policy in an official way and keep a record

I find the prospect of bantering with the monolith quite daunting. With your sharp wit you would make a far better consumer advocate than me, GO GET EM TIGER.

I find the prospect of bantering with the monolith quite daunting.

I have also got to get my head out of fruit trees and focus on a work project for a bit, In a couple of months, I will have more time to make some polite inquires.

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Eden S-East NSW
3rd November 2010 4:34pm
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kert says...
I saw it some time ago in NSW and filed it away in my head. The reqquirement was to show the grower and the variety together with the rootstock ;quite comrehensive. Maybe a direct inquiry at the Dept. is in order.
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sydney
3rd November 2010 4:39pm
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allybanana says...
Damn, you didnt bite, i guess i will have to do it mysealf, thanks for the info though.
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Eden S-East NSW
3rd November 2010 5:00pm
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Jason says...
ally, I had a look at my trees, the one that's doing ok from Flemmings has the brown rougher bark under the graft, the small one from Daleys seems to have grey bark just the same as the graft. The Flemmings one is a larger tree it's easier to tell, but I'll look again at the Daleys tree to double check one day when there's brighter light but that's how it seemed today.

When the girl in the office says it's company policy not to disclose information about something. That's company speak for "I don't know what you are talking about" :) They probably didn't have an easy way to contact or couldn't be bothered to ring up the nurseryman responsible for the persimmons
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Jason
Portland
6th November 2010 10:56pm
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Original Post was last edited: 6th November 2010 11:00pm
allybanana says...
Jason, the more I the am learning about persimmon rootstocks the less I feel I know. What you have noticed is similar to what I have found and I suspect the darker rootstock from Flemings, is American persimmon, but with out any references for what lotus persimmon rootstock looks like I could easily be wrong. Also to correct myself in the above posts, many say American persimmon has better drought resistance than kaki.

After such success with your legendary white sapote Jason, humble persimmon should be a breeze. I wonder, with your sulker, perhaps if you totally spoil it for a bit. A Fuyu that I got bare rooted didnít move for four years and last spring/summer I removed the weeds, gave it a heap of seaweed and goose poo then thick mulch over the top and watered regularly. This spring it is really happy with lots of lush new growth. I have read in a few places they have a reputation for being difficult to get started but once they do they are pretty tough.


I recently had a bit of a personal breakthrough grafting persimmons straight on to the roots of both kaki and something I think is American persimmon. I used dormant wood stored in the fridge and waited until the buds on the rootstock trees were a couple of centimetres long. I dug down and found thick roots 1-2 meters away from the tree, washed them and left them intact until just before grafting. The fibrous end of the roots was left in the ground and not disturbed at all. I cut the roots from the parent tree and used cleft and side veneer graft with tongue, as the root diameter was much greater than the scion. I wrapped the entire scion in lab paraffin or placed on a plastic bag with paper bag over the top. The roots were regularly irrigated for the next month. I have not yet seen the initial success, but Johno, stepdad, who runs the orchard in ACT said they have taken well. I will wait until dormancy before attempting to transplant. I hope to get up and see them soon.

If this works and they survive transplantation, then one could use a rootstock that works in an area without a clue what it is. For instance a great tree like Annas that works were she lives could be replicated above and below the ground. Admittedly clonal reproduction is a poor compensation to the genetic diversity created by sexual reproduction. But there is a few plants I would like to replicate for friends. Here in Eden I have a 20 year old flat seedless persimmon, the fruit is superb and the tree bears heavily and has a lot of dwarfing characteristics being no more that three meters high even now, the rootstock has the dark black scales indicative of American persimmon. As the rootstocks are seedlings, the dwarfing could be characteristic of this particular seedling. This combination makes for a good backyard persimmon for someone with a small yard and I want to graft one for a friend that grows good bonsai.
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Eden S-East NSW
9th November 2010 12:13pm
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sandra says...
Hi Everybody Anna could you please tell me a bit more about your tree?.
What type of soil do you have in your area and what position is your tree planted in? What sort of weather is it exposed to??
I ask because I bought a persimon today after having lost my first one at 1 year of age - I was very disappointed -
But I got this one today. Its a Nightingale and about 2m tall with one fruit on it. fingers crossed - I have sandier soil and do use composting to boost soil condition.
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sandra7
Vic East Gippsland
5th April 2012 8:34pm
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