My Cherimoya

allybanana says...
Thats great Wayne what variety do you have, i hope it tastes great, did you notice any visitors to the flowers that might have been doing the job before you started helping.

allybanana says...
I don’t see why it couldn’t be ants they have been implicated in mango pollination. These two links reckon they are likely involved in cherimoya pollination http://www284.pair.com/florists/all-about-flowers/Cherimoya.htm

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/52285.html and this link
(scroll down seven).

Its fascinating, if the pollinators are not bees but ants or other insects living in close proximity of the tree they would be much more vulnerable to pesticides.

Wayne says...
I have at least 26 million ants in my yard and over the trees, from minutes to man eaters, and I use very little pesticide so they safe in numbers.

I don't know if my pollinating technique is working yet.

This tree is deciduous Jason and spends a couple of months a year naked.

Jason says...
My transplanted tree looks ok so far :). I'm feeling brave enough to move another one sometime in the next few days. One of the seedlings from this fruit in the picture.

There's a bit of a story about it. I got really sick during my Cherimoya hunting travels to Mexico and lost tons of weight which took years to recover from, I weighed just under 50 kilos here :S super skinny for someone that's 5 10 and was already thin at 65 kilos 5 months before this. (I was actually at my aunt in laws backyard because I needed to come back to Mexico city from the bush to get better :)) but most impressively this Cherimoya was over 2 kilos!. I had to leave Mexico city for the States to come home since I was half dead before it was ripe so I dug two seeds out of it and came home. Customs flogged all seeds I'd collected over the months at the airport despite being a legal import and labeled etc, they made me cry (and why I couldn't care less for customs dodgy rules to this day) but I had and exact copy of all my seeds still in Mexico and they made it through in the mail (got tested at customs in Sydney and certified as BLACK SAPOTE! (idiots). So I had ONE seed left from this fruit and that's the next tree I'll move (risky)

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Wayne says...
Fantastic looking "BLACK SAPOTE" you have there Jason :-]

amanda says...
Kert - I have to ask - what's the buzz with Hungarian goose down?
(as opposed to what you get here)
And - was it compressed like a coco-peat block or something? it would have filled lotsa suitcases otherwise hey ;-)

allybanana says...
Speaking of starving fruit fanatics, is that fruitarian guy from the Daintree still around. I met him there about 1995 he was riding a bike along the Daintree road with a jackfruit on the back of his bike he stopped and had a chat to my girlfriend and I, as we were hitchhiking. He would have been about 19 years old, lucky to weigh 50 kg had fungus growing on his body. He only ate fruit and he didn’t even eat seeds or nuts as he thought that was dishonest to the plants. He was right into fruit trees and was planting out the north with them on his travels. We had a great chat and a laugh, I hope he didn’t completely waste away, .

Jason says...
hehe Ally I wasn't starving I was just full of stomach bugs from living in a mud brick village and drinking from a river that was full of.... stuff? some government guys came and stuck up skull and cross bones all along the river the day I left...... and gave me some pills and said take these right now!, I had no clue what the pills were so I gave them a miss. This was after I already drank from the river heaps, in any case my health went rapidly down hill about 5 hours later :P. It took me from then 2001 till last year to gain that 15 kilos back, I presumed I was full of parasites that whole time and I probably was but in the end I found a doctor that filled me full of drugs for a week and then on his half a suggestion I stopped eating gluten (seems I can't eat that any more, maybe I never could?) and now I'm good, getting fatter by the day :p

I've met quite a few raw foodists over the years but only a couple that are successful at it long term, Matt Monarch and Angela Stokes really were the only two that seemed to be getting it right and in person Angela especially just beams health out of her eyes like no one I've seen in person before, even more than they do on video, you just get the idea that's how everyone should be.

She's quite famous for loosing a huuuge amount of weight when she changed diet and she's stuck at it for years and years

http://gliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/angela-stokes-02.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HESWMoMNcRw&feature=&

Worth look at this video ^

Anyway it's very difficult to hold onto that diet in the modern world so both her and Matt (ended up a couple) and they live in a remote valley in Ecuador now, eating Cherimoyas and Babacos all day no doubt :P

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Interestingly new research seems to indicate that parasitic worms actually assist in the control of many diseases of the 21st century, MS, asthma, ulcerative colitis & Crohn's, multiple allergies - take a look at the link below if you have chronic immune related disorders

http://autoimmunetherapies.com/helminthic-therapy-worm-therapy-index.html

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Well you should listen to late night live sometime Kert, or download the programme from ABC radio - this guy got run out of the US as the drug companies were after his skin. People can only speak from personal experience. Working in the medical field myself, it is amazing how debilitating autoimmude disorders can be - if I had one it would be a small price to pay for a cure or remission of symptoms.

Jason says...
Phil, because the weather here is either extremely bad or the sun is extremely burning most white people don't/can't get outside much. They've started testing everyone in the area for Vitamin D deficiency, not sure if this was an government idea or the local Doctors?. I didn't get tested myself but pretty much everyone I know did and they all came back under 25 points (the say you need 100+ with under 50 being no good). One friend of mine, she was 16 points, my wife was 19 points, few friends of ours were in the low 20s etc. I was reading up on it and a lot of the temperate latitude diseases seem to be related to this problem.

Anyway in between avoiding sunburn we are going outside more now :). I wear a jumper without a t-shirt to let the light in a bit without burning myself to death, that seems to work. Maybe more of us need to head up your way during Winter to get some of that mild Northern sunlight

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Yes I've noticed in the elderly who don't get much sun that they suffer more from chronic disease and depression - 10 minutes a day is enough to avoid serious effects and boost your D levels.

kert says...
Jason et al . .. This will sound condescending but no matter; Do you realise how bad you sound talking (and here I assume) well outside your area of expertise ;Vit D measured in "points",people being "run out of town" by drug companies (persecutory delusions) I will not go on .
Would you really hold forth on cherimoya growing ,say, with so little background?

Jeff says...
Kert, you are really the centre of your own universe

Jake says...
We need an ioniser on this site to dispel all of Kert's negativity and have a useful discussion for a change.

kert says...
I can see from your reponse,Jake, that you for one, are imbued with a generosity of spirit that I can only hope to emulate. I am in awe of you.

amanda says...
"Trolling alert" on this thread guys... :)

Jason says...
Kert, I live in a world of almost constant table tennis tournaments so to me everything is measured in points :) I could probably speed in a car in points. I know you like to jump in with a hero sarcastic quote here and there but I'm used to it already, you'll have to try MUCH harder :), and while you are there you should probably also put your glasses on and actually read the posts then you will see I never said anything about any drug company running anyone out of town. I don't know your background but it's obviously limited and full of _toxins_ if you have to resort to useless attention grabbing remarks rather than being happy :D (relax a bit)

a says...
I am sorry if i am wreaking the fun of this thead even more than Amanda’s kill joy troll warning.

Okay Jason i feel you missed my point in post #4, now i know your language let me try again.

When I wrote, "I don’t see why it couldn’t be ants they have been implicated in mango pollination. These two links reckon they are likely involved in cherimoya pollination". Here notice the words "involved" and "implicated". This suggests some points, not all or even most, could be scored by ants.

One of those links with a focus on flowers and pollination, suggests ants could even play a minor role in cherimoya pollination in the natural environment, no spin, no slams, just a few pitta patter shots when the beetles are off their game. This is of particular interest in Australia as the beetles here don’t know which end of the paddle to hold and I don’t mean they play like the Chines. This gives the ants a potentially unopposed opportunity to score a few points if indeed they can tap the ball over the net.

Something has been playing on Wayne’s Table and scoring points to Wayne’s Delight, he suspects the ants might just be playing. Alternatively the ball may have just dropped over the net when the table opened. I feel it would be good to try and find what is going on because if it is ants it would be good to know what ones, so they can be encouraged.

Such things are surprisingly easy to start testing, I once researched pollination ecology of persoonias and we used fine mesh exclusion bags placed over the flowers before they opened and various treatments applied once they opened:

1. Leave it alone with the bag on, this assesses weather or not the flower pollinates itself without help from ants or anything else besides wind.

2. A control with no bag, to test how many are being pollinated naturally.

3 A bag on and hand pollinate to compare effectiveness with one and two.

4 No exclusion bag and vasalin on branch to see if winged pollinators are doing the job, like perhaps beetles.

5 If small ants are suspected exclude bigger ants with a larger hole mesh.

Bags are easy to make a stapler is the quickest way to make bag seams and close the bag around the branch.

This is probably already being done somewhere in the world, but pollinators can differ in different places. It’s just a fun idea if someone finds themself with a bit of spare time and of course mysterious independently pollinating cherimoya.

allybanana says...
whoops

Thats a very hetrosexist comment:)

allybanana says...
You know adversity brings people closer togeather, standing up for a common value system, for instance look how many people came out of the woodwork to have a bash at kert. People who normaly wouldnt comment, drawn out to stand up for their values and probably for the exitment and a taste of blood. I hope now they feel more part of this cyber community and will comment more in the future and thank kert for the holisticly positive affect he has on bringing this cyber community togeather. I find it scary to post, I assume others do to.

allybanana says...
Naw thats Glowinski

allybanana says...
That’s the ones, snottigoble, they were my whole life once, camping with a mate Chris in the blue mountains all through spring to summer. Visiting our research sites on pushbike after Chris bent the axel on the Dept. of Biol. 4wd rally driving.

Interestingly the native ground cover often sold by plant retailers with the very pretty yellow flowers, Persoonia chamaepitys has a tasty fruit, you have to lift up the fronds to find them so they are often missed. In flavour, P. laurina was my favourite this scrappy little shrub lives in the blue mountains and can propagate vegetatively with underground stems or roots so should be easy to strike.

We were focusing on pollination ecology in hybrid zones and the effect of introduced and native bees on pollination systems. We only tested fruit taste informally, some of them are pretty good. Unfortunately the common ones on the Eastern Sea board like broad leaf gebung Persoonia levis and narrow leaf gebung P. linearus usually taste pretty average and totally disgusting if not as ripe as a persimmon needs to be. This turns people off them I think, perseverance with the smaller species can be quite rewarding. I would love to try and grow p. laurina here.

Obviously your a fan snottiegobble, I noticed in WA they get a better rap and tasted some okay ones when camped down in wattle 3. Do you grow them yoursealf?

Dundee says...
Hey - how is it that multiple members can have zero as their UserID?
Even when they have been on the forum for quite some time?

kert says...
Not thick skin ,allybannanna but a clear understanding that the record speaks for itself. Your words condemn you.

amanda says...
It might be best to leave that pot alone? :) Let's get back to gardening maybe. I too am curious allybanana about how these flowers pollinate.
I haven't spent much time observing my flowers - but I never seen my ants near them - which is interesting as they are not fussy, as a rule.
I am wondering if pollination is happening under the cover of darkness - but I love my sleep too much to go out with a torch to find out ;)
Spring brings a plethora of night time bugs (here at least).

allybanana says...
Dundee, I guess I am 0 because I have never registered, I have never come across a place to register either, I am not against the idea. When I have a working camera I would love to do a, my edibles page as well. I know on other forums you have to register before you can post. And on those forums you have moderators that give you a warning if your rude and then boot you out if you put newbies down. I figured Daleys fruit forum was just a bit more anarchist, "individual freedom, individual responsibility", I think this way it makes it easier for someone new just to post a quick inquiry on gardening without being bogged down in registation. I like it.

amanda says...
Hi allybanana, I am with you on the ants though - there is much more to learn about them? I don't think I would have got any white sapote without them. They also loved the lychee flowers - which are in my enclosed shade house. I now have a half doz lychees forming on my 1yr old plant :) It is only my tiny ants that do this job though.

If you logout in the REPLY to this forum and then re-log in with your email address etc - you will get an ID No. (Dundee was actually me ;) - I was curious as to how it all worked and was experimenting - the email I put in was a nonsense one!? weird) No moderator can have it's drawbacks..as you may have seen. I was just trying to avert an inevitable scene by posting a "trolling alert" - I (and maybe others?) have seen it too many times now and it always ends the same with a particular person... :(

allybanana says...

Does this give me a number

kert says...
I must apologise for my recent boorish behaviour.

kert says...
Show yourself,whoever it is . Amanda.

allybanana says...
Amanda, the ants fascinate me they can be both pest and friend, some farming aphids, some defending the plant dispersing seed or pollinating, I had an inspirational lecturer at Wollongong Uni, Kris French, she was into the mutualistic (benefits each other) relationships between ants and plants. I did field work with her in the Royal National Park and after that I changed my major to include ecology. She was also very informative about how politics has shaped science. In her lectures she explained how competition in biology was also used to Justify competition in economics. Anyone wanting to study biological mutualistic relationships in the fifties sixties and seventies didn’t get funding; it was a bit to commie for the academic authorities. She explained as result ecological science rarely studied mutalistic relationships, so people assumed they weren’t there or important. Fortunately things have changed a bit over the last 15 years in science, as for economics.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Yes the mushrooms all sprang up from the bottom of the pot, not sure if they came out of the tree trunk through naturual decay. I don't know what species they are but they were nice while they lasted. Hoping for another show with the warm wet weather.

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Yes I enjoyed them purely for their decorative value!

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Thanks. They don't seem to be, the stump beneath was pretty much dead anyway.

Sean says...
Hi guys
I did collect a lot of of Cherimoya seeds from around the Andes area but unfortunately where I live at the moment is just that bit too cold for them and I have had no success with the at all. My brother has got a few of them to grow well but mine seem to all get root rot every winter. I still have a few seeds but they are about 6 years old now and from what Jason said they are too old to germinate now. Bit of a pity but you cant win them all:(

allybanana says...
Sean if you dont want the old dry seeds i am happy to give germination a go I have read they can last a few years dry (not six though) i will happly send a self adressed padded envelope allydalton.sculpture@gmail.com Also what are the selections like you gave to your bro, they would be fruiting any year now. If they are a more cold tolerant strain i am sure there are many including mysealf who would love to try grafting them or growing some from seed. I can swap asimina seedlings they dont mind wet feet and cold.

Mike Tr says...
They are looking good John.I hope you line them up and have an Annona pageant. Good cherimoya and good atemoya in a taste competition would be an eye opener. I wonder which would be the favourite.
I planted out some Annona seedlings lately that are doing alright.
2 varieties of bullocks heart-sarteneja and kimber
2 varieties of soursop-lisa and Tanzanian
3 ilama trees from seeds of 3 mixed varieties- red genova,green genova and rosie perez.
I gave away some morolo,A.spragei and other obscure species.

Mike Tr says...
It is all coming back to me now John.Cacans are especially diversifolia are pretty tropical but are supposed to be great to eat.The giant sugar apple and giant soursop have aroused my curiosity on the Annona front lately. We have been at the shallow end of the gene pool in Australia with Annonas.

Markmelb says...
Hi john -
I got a Daleys Sofia b4 xmas and as a tiny plant fresh from nursery produced about 4 flowers and put on 40cm growth in a couple branches - now put in a more protected spot as in a 430mm pot still - cooler winds making older leaves yellow off - was hoping was more precocious than your experience?
Love to hear from any other Sofia owners? Mark

Markmelb says...
John - it looks ok - in spring will u cut back 1/3 and take off a few leaves on each branch end to encourage flowers?
My pinks and Paxtons Prolific seem hardier leaves than my sofia but I guess early day in acclimatising to Victoria

Markmelb says...
thanks for the tips - what age were yours when they held fruit? Have you tasted a sofia cherimoya yet?

allybanana says...
My sophie is blasting along about 90cm growth this year and still has vigerouse growth tips. I only managed to successfully hand pollinate one fruit this year and am waiting to taste my first cherimoya. This year i gave it heaps of sea weed and dinofert and then covered that with a thick layer of mulch. It gets good sun and lots of water.

The two forbidden fruit cherimoya i got in spring started slow but are now growing strong.

I also gave a Forbidden Fruit Cherimoya to a friend last spring who got three fruit set with no hand pollination and no other cherimoya around, the tree is about 60cm high. Because the tree is young he picked off two fruit and left one. This variety appears to be as great at setting fruit as Chester claims.

allybanana says...
My two Forbidden fruits Cheimoya also set fruit without pollination in Eden. They started setting fruit December and are still setting fruits now. I have noticed that the stigma(female) is sill sticky when the pollen and anthers (male) fall. Some of the anthers stick to the stigma without any inerferance from me. Interestingly this does not happen on my Sophia Cherimoya that does not self pollinate on my property.

Markmelb says...
Is the Forbidden Fruits Cherimoya grafted?
I guess it must be and how old is it now?
My Paxton has 2 selfies annd is only just finshed its 2nd summer.
The Sternus Giant Cherimoya seeds have germinated - 5 out of 10 seeds so hoping they progress well - would be interested in any FF bits when you prune as have a few Sophia seedlings to graft? Could swap some Paxton or Pinks in return?

JohnMc1 says...
I tried my hand at green grafting FF onto cherimoya this summer with very good results and the mature FF cherimoya tree is absolutely loaded this year.

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2

JohnMc1 says...
Yes, this variety is self pollinating and fruits over a long period. It is carrying fist size fruit down to still flowering.
You won't be disappointed with your White Sapotes, one of my favourite fruits.