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amanda starts with ... Ok..I admit that I am an activist of sorts..and I am disturbed by this. But - I am also interested in peoples reactions to this? Not to start an argument or anything...just wondering how we all feel about any other country being able to come in any buy up our farm land..and for what reason? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/chinese-swoop-on-16-dairy-farms-in-new-zealand-6295945.html Oh...and if u don't think it will happen in Aust..it's already happening :(eg: the Margaret river cheese company has just been purchased by China too..just one more example) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 1:48am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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jakfruit etiquette says... Tax schemes and MIS managed investment schemes by Australians have been buying up rural land,distorting and wrecking the rural economy, then when they collapse without ever producing anything,leaving a big hole in rural jobs( all by Australians)Thats more damaging than foreign companies buying and running farms productivly. | About the Author 5th February 2012 7:48am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... The fact is that if buy the resource - you control the resource. I don't care who it is - british or chinese and it's bit different to foreign ownership of luxury waterside properties or such? I am just wondering if it is the right thing to do. I guess time will tell how this pans out. I just thought it was worth a mention/discussion - not to imply anything racist or to incite a riot. This is also affecting our mining industries...buy the iron ore resource...u control it - and it's price.. (and..if u have just 10% of 1 billion people with a growing demand for cheese/dairy...that's 100 million people..? How can our small populations compete with this kind of demand into the future? India's new middle class is yet to come on-line here..another 100 million? There could be very intersting times ahead of us I am thinking..that's all :) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 12:34pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... And then the follow on (in my mind anyway) is....can the planet actually sustain this? Our western lifestyle is rapacious and already putting a huge strain on the planet....I don't believe it's sustainable even at it's current level...what happens when you add even more people to the equation, who (understandably) want the same things..? How is the planet going to cope? EG: Can we even produce enough dairy to meet this demand? When demand goes up - prices go up. I can't be the only person to see that the cost of a kilo of cheese has trebled in recent years..? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 1:07pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Original Post was last edited: 5th February 2012 1:08pm | |||||||
Jason says... I don't think foreign ownership should be allowed to happen but I'm sure the government realise that if they don't allow it or at some point decide to take it back. Well China in the end will have the means and will to just take it anyway so I guess they figure you might as well get some money for it rather than it being for free. The real problem with Australia is that we sell all our minerals for other countries to develop infrastructure and at the same time we are devaluing the country as a tourist destination. We are also not developing out own infrastructure, I can see that in the not so distant future we will be without resources, without any land worth seeing and without any infrastructure. Most other countries are either not that stupid or have been in the past and have learnt from the mistake | About the Author Jason Portland 5th February 2012 1:17pm #UserID: 637 Posts: 1217 View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Original Post was last edited: 5th February 2012 1:21pm | |||||||
john says... China is different- when a Chinese enterprise buys land it is either overtly backed by the Chinese Govt. ,say a sovereign wealth fund, or covertly when the figurehead board is stacked with Red Army officers and off spring of high government officials. Why does it matter? Well it does because if you have a dispute with such a firm they have the weight of the Chinese Govt. behind them. You are liable to face diplomatic pressure at the highest level and run the risk of boycotts- witness the denial of rare earths to Japan. If you think that U.S. hegemony was bad wait til use see how ugly the Chinese can be. | About the Author 5th February 2012 1:33pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Gee - that's a bit foreboding but interesting john....This may have happened with the recent major price hike in the iron ore? Cupla years back now. There was a great deal of tension over that and threats too - to go elsewhere. Now there is a concerted move to buy major shares in all the iron ore interests here in WA. Hadn't thought about it like that. Lucky for us the system is different in India? We could really be the meat between the sandwich! :-O | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 1:46pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author Gus8 5th February 2012 1:59pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I don't know that that was/is the issue Gus? (not for me anyway) I guess some will turn this into a race issue :( but it's really a political issue I thought? And - we don't have a billion people to feed either? We haven't abused our land and poisoned it with heavy metals and industrial pollution at the expense of all else? (certainly not on the scale that China has?) It's also curious that much of our food now comes from China...and yet they are buying farming land o/seas...I just don't get it? Maybe I am missing a piece of this puzzle. I am very curious about what this is all about, myself? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 2:51pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Here are a cupla links I just quickly googled..they are quite interesting? http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/land-rush/story-fn59niix-1226085165144 http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/selling-the-farm-part-1/ http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/concern-as-foreign-buyers-secure-agricultural-land-20110819-1j2it.html There's no point in burying our heads in the sand here...it's perhaps naive to think that this can't/won't happen here. Aust is a primary resource country - and very attractive and stable. I care about the next generations and hope that we are doing the right thing here? (ps - the 2nd link (ABC one) is very good reading on the issue.....well presented without the fear mongering associated with this kind of emotive topic..) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 3:00pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Original Post was last edited: 5th February 2012 3:09pm | |||||||
amanda says... And john has hit the nail on the head here: (it's not a race issue at all...this might explain things better:) Water rights Of particular concern to Senator Heffernan is that under current FIRB regulations foreign companies, sometimes with the backing of sovereign wealth funds, are able to buy the permanent water licences associated with agricultural properties. "At the present time there's no differentiation between private investment and sovereign investment – in other words other countries' sovereign wealth funds buying our sovereign assets and then excluding us from access to them," Senator Heffernan said. This really needs to be sorted out surely? All Australians should be thinking about these issues IMHO..? ps...off my soap box now.. ;-) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 3:21pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Gus says... I can't say I understand a lot of this topic either, and I am not convinced by anyone who has strong opinions in any direction. I am sure that a lot of peoples concern over inernational investment in Australia is based on some of the dubious activities of some of those countries. Do any of you guys have an opinion on how Australia fares in terms of its environmental controls? We have a pretty small nation without the overwhelming food needs that a place like China requires, so I wonder if it is fare to compare? Are we an environmentally friedly nation that leads the world, or should we be listening, learning and inviting international investment? (Not a loaded question, I honestly don't know) Its hard to objectively scrutinize a country when you are feeding on its media every day and I wonder what sort of opinions farmers or miners from around the globe would hold of us. From what little I know, a couple of Cuban farmers wouldn't go astray here. | About the Author Gus8 5th February 2012 3:28pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Agreed Gus! :) It's a huge and complex topic and I don't pretend to have any better knowledge myself :) Just think it's good to talk about it tho, and I have lots of questions! EG: One thing mentioned in that book "The Coming Famine" is that Aust grows enough food to feed around 60 million people, annually. We all know that there can be many factors that adversly affect this...take last years floods.. But - if we have to double our output, in the near future (as estimated) to feed the growing world...then how are we going to do this? More GM crops maybe? There are many angles to this problem? Like, who will then decide who is going to get fed in the world and who isn't? The decision may not be ours/Aust's to make anymore? Can we afford the "wait and see" approach? Maybe, maybe not.. So many questions and so few answers :-( | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 3:55pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Gus says... About six years ago there was a massive debate in Aust about whaling, and most Australians were a littled peed off with the Japanese Govt. I went and visited some friends in Japan right at the height of these feuds and was kind of releived that I didn't walk into a storm of anti Australianism. On the contrary, most of the people I met over there new little of the conflict. Very few had even tried eating whale meat, and not one person I met actually liked the taste. You should have seen their faces when I told them how much I like a nice peice of roo. They were kind of horrified. I know I am ignoring some very important ecolgical factors, but I guess it just made me wonder about everything I "knew". This is probably why I am not a politician. I just can't stop fence sitting! | About the Author Gus8 5th February 2012 4:31pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... Mike, McCarthyism was a belief that there was a Communist conspiracy in the highest reaches of the US Government. My objection to Chinese behaviour is not based on their political system as such but their totalitarian inclination. As for the "rare earths", Japanese patrols intercepted Chinese vessels poaching in Jap. waters . The Chinese Govt then instituted an embargo on rare earths to Japan. This happened only recently. China is flexing its muscle all over the South China Sea and is in dispute with practically every country that has a shore line on the Sea. | About the Author 5th February 2012 6:29pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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snottiegobble says... Confucious say " China who buy merino from Australia no longer needs Aussie wool! Just one incidence of complete disregard for the future & its obvious repercussions, Gus did you know that the Japanese government used tsunami funds of $27 million to provide security vessels for the whalers in Southern Ocean this summer? Please ask your Japanese friends if they knew!! I bet they didnt! | About the Author snottiegobble Bunbury/Busso (smackin the middle) 5th February 2012 7:08pm #UserID: 3468 Posts: 1458 View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I don't think this is about feeling threatened? (not yet anyway :) It's about sharing food and water resources into the future, equitably. If some countries are making these moves to ensure their food security..then why aren't we? Do they know something we don't? If u read the ABC link u can see that the problem lies with the FIRB (Foreign investment review board) I could be totally wrong here - but I don't think that these countries are buying key Ag assets just to turn a profit here...? Even our own farmers are having trouble doing that themselves..? ;-) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 7:15pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Gus says... I doubt they knew that either Snottie. For a "free" first world country I found their media to be rather restricted. I guess to see that first hand made me question the selective nature of what we are fed hear. Look back on any era of Australian history and we have every right to be embarresed. | About the Author Gus8 5th February 2012 7:55pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Hard to imagine on our side of the fence Mike - but we had a global food shortage crisis in just 2008: http://www.unctad.org/sections/edm_dir/docs/osg_2008_1_en.pdf (This article by the UN) This is not new and will likely get worse. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 8:03pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 5th February 2012 8:21pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... If buying land by Chinese sovereign wealth funds is so innocuous and holds few risks for Australia,why is it not possible for Australians to buy land in China ? It is because China knows that a foreign entity will impinge on sovereignty and take decisions that are not always in the best interests of the host country. | About the Author 6th February 2012 9:17am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Well one thing that is likely - is that we will probably have to grow a lot more of our food at home - just like in the "old" days maybe? Maybe that book might be worth a read too - it's certainly being quoted a great deal in the media. I don't understand why don't just lease the land instead of selling it. Maybe a 99yr lease and see how things go. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 9:44am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author JohnI Melton 6th February 2012 10:01am #UserID: 1975 Posts: 248 View All JohnI's Edible Fruit Trees |
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bobbles says... If a foreign entity (individual, or a company) wishes to purchase land or assets in Australia, it needs to be approved by the FIRB (Foreign Investment Review Board). Yup, even if someone is here for a few years on a working visa and wants to buy their own home. There is a very strict process. Plus, if everything goes totally to custard the government can seize the assets back (not that I'd encourage that as it is a pretty big deal). Foreign investment is not necessarily a bad thing - improvement requires capital outlay and sometimes that comes from overseas. I'd be more concerned by the houses we're plonking on prime agricultural land ... that is something we won't get back. | About the Author bobbles 6th February 2012 11:37am #UserID: 6385 Posts: 6 View All bobbles's Edible Fruit Trees |
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John says... The FIRB is a pretty tame watchdog. Its rare arousal from torpor was when Chinese interests tried to buy land near the Woomera Rocket range and the FIRB cited security as a reason for rejecting. No,Bobbles, the Govt is forbidden by the Constitution from seizing land without fair compensation. It needs to be understood that the Chinese will be in adversarial position with the West for a long time, this being a consequence of the very nature of the Chinese regime.(Regime because they shot their way to power in 1949 and have not had an election since) | About the Author 6th February 2012 12:33pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Read the ABC link bobbles: "The sale of agricultural land is exempt under Foreign Investment Review Board regulations and the FIRB’s attention is usually triggered only by the sale of companies whose assets exceed a $231 million threshold" How many farms are in the 231 million+ bracket? This is a problem, IMHO. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 1:39pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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bobbles says... I’m aware of the constitutional requirement relating to the government seizing assets – that is why I said it was a big deal. (The government does regularly seize assets ... thing of all the highways and roads that are put in each year). However I included this comment to counteract the concerns of serious food shortages - events that have resulted in governments seizing assets or even nationalising (not that I imagine nationalisation would occur in Australia, and I don’t think we’re about to have water-wars like some African nations). And I also agree – FIRB is a bit of a tame watchdog. But they do exist. You need foreign investment approval irrespective of the value when acquiring interest in non-residential vacant land – this means foreign investors have to obtain approval before turning vacant land into a farm. The $224M (as of 01 Jan 2012) applies to a farming business (where the land is not classified as vacant), and yes it is not subject to notification under section 26A of the FATA. But I don’t think we need to panic just yet. According to Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and Sciences: • 99% of Australian agricultural businesses are entirely Australian owned; • 88.6% of agricultural land in Australia is entirely Australian owned; and • 5.8% of Australian agricultural land is majority owned by foreign investors. A 2011 ABS survey noted differences in relation to a 1984 ABS survey. The comparison showed that between 1984 and 2011: • the percentage of entirely Australian owned agricultural businesses fell from 99.7% to 99%; and • the percentage of entirely Australian owned agricultural land fell from 94.1% to 88.6%. Furthermore, when you ‘buy a farm’ you are making an investment. That means you need to be able to make a profit. So either you’re running it, or employing someone to run it (which means the farmer wouldn’t be asking for government hand-outs as they are an employee and the company would not have such a right ... so you’d want to be confident you could make enough profit to survive the lean years). It is very difficult to run a business when you are not in the country that the business is operating. There is a reason why most agricultural enterprises are run by locals. As I said before – I’d be more concerned about the prime agricultural land that is being covered by housing developments. | About the Author bobbles 6th February 2012 4:43pm #UserID: 6385 Posts: 6 View All bobbles's Edible Fruit Trees |
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bobbles says... Thanks Mike, I guess I’m being a bit of a hypocrite and inciting drama about the “urban sprawl” whilst trying to temper the “foreign ownership fears”! To be honest I can see the patches of bush become brand new estates and the big trees disappear (what will children be able to fall out of now?) ... but I’ve not really considered how significant those patches are in relation to the total quantum of remaining. You argument makes sense, particularly as some responsible farming practices can improve the soil (thereby increasing the capacity of the land for farming – Amanda’s efforts in Geraldton for example) and many places we plonk houses in Australia are hardly “prime agricultural” land! | About the Author bobbles 6th February 2012 5:44pm #UserID: 6385 Posts: 6 View All bobbles's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I thought we were already having a kind of water-war over the Murray river water resources? But why is the Govt offering $50 million to buy back the water rights of Bencubbin (station is it?) because of it's possible sale to as yet unknown foreigners? Is our water something that could be bought and sold in speculative markets? I don't know much about it - but it seems the same questions are being asked in other countries too: http://www.horizons.gc.ca/doclib/SD_BN_Water%20Tradable_e.pdf (And how can "unknown" interests even be allowed to purchase land in Aust to start with? That's pretty out there?) Thanks for your post bobbles - it explains a bit more of the picture :) It would be really interesting to see if the activity in this area increases (if it does) from 2008 until a few years from now...? From what I have gathered from the media links - it seems that there has been more activity in the last couple of years? I am wondering why that would be and what's going on? Have our Laws changed? (or Govt ;) or is this just a bubble that has grown and finally burst into public conciousness? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 6:00pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... And I think people will fear it, naturally, if it they don't have the answers to their questions at their fingertips? That's pretty normal/understandable. It's good, and healthy, to ask questions!? :) That's why I am asking questions too...to try and understand this - amoungst folk who are growers and care about the land etc? The pollies don't seem to be able clarify the situation? :D We don't even have a National Food Security Plan..? Other developed countries do? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 6:17pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I kind of disagree Mike - it was important enough for the ABS to launch into their review only last year? this is a Govt Dept - not the Media..? "Currently there is very little information available on the level of foreign ownership of agricultural businesses, land and water rights within Australia." (and water rights...?) (link: http://abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DOSSbytitle/7D1341AF14A92E5ECA257829007BA6D0?OpenDocument I just don't think we (Govt) have a handle on it - as usual. I will see if I can find out anything definitive tho. ps: this link was really interesting...the good Senator didn't present in such a good light - but still - there were some points on both sides. I have no trouble with foreign investment - but foreign ownership? I still can't understand why we need to sell - rather than lease - like they do in other countries? Anyway - this link is only a week old...and the jury is well and truly out! :) I have really appreciated reading the posts here too. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/panel3a-firb/3798720 | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 7:58pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I do agree there Mike...whipping up hysteria helps nothing and only serves to divide public opinion. And it is not just China...Pakistan is buying Ag land in Africa too...? etc etc. I am an idealist tho....if we are going to sell the farm...at least let some of the countries that Really need some of our growing land, buy it...not just the same World-wide wealthy countries feasting at the trough, as always..? (and yes - I include Aust in that statement too...huge investments in African mineral wealth...we are no different) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 6th February 2012 10:02pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Pfft...I am tired of being "politically correct" over these issues myself. People are starving and dying in this world - thru no fault of their own. We are losing our humanity in thrum of politiking...here is an image for you...and then tell me that there "is no food shortage in this world"..? Dunno what planet some people live on..but this is the one I live on... We grow enuf food to feed the world..so why don't we feed the world? Wasn't GM supposed to be the saviour here..the end to world hunger..Yea right. That is someones' daughter BTW. (I realise this is "below the belt' as such...but - while we are here postulating over this n that over food...perhaps it would serve us well to remember that by accident of birth - some people don't live in the "lucky countries" as far as food goes?)
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amanda says... Mike..I am not that complicated, to be frank. This is how I see my world. Very different to you perhaps. But just as valid? "Set up"? U can't see the bones on that child? It's from National Geographic and the story behind that pic is utterly distressing (Was child B a set up too?) The mother had to leave that child behind to die because she could not carry two children. Can u even imagine making that decision? Check out the sand around that kid? I know that sand - very well. I have reticulation tho...and money. It's all very well that people may need to die to restore the balance in this world...as long as it's not "me or mine"? "More western food can mean more children being born"... Whoa. Lets stop right there perhaps. A change in topic? No it's not actually. If u don't think we will be running out of food anytime soon..think again. We already are!? Maybe this is why our Ag assets are being snapped up? Duh. I am sorry to aim both barrels at u here now...but I kind of felt it was necessary to bring the point home? I am almost ashamed to call myself a "human" being. Maybe it's all good over your side of Aust?...but over here - it's not. It's not good at all. And I can empathise with people around the world who are trying to survive in increasingly drier climates. My survival does not depend on my veg patch however. It's all related, it's all linked. Look at the Big Picture. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 12:42am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 12:51am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Yes I agree Mike..but - we are not sharing the resources equally...(and the "buy up" is not going to make it any better?) BOTH of those children are an aberration. But they do represent something very important here? think about it. Yes populations do explode - so it is - in India, China, Ours, theirs, whatever. But - why do we think that Africa is somehow "less" in this equation? Raped and pillaged, sold into slavery, blah blah. And - is one life worth less than any other here? (don't get me wrong - I think humans are fleas on the arse of the world - surprise!?) but - every living creature has a right to be here? Wealthy nations are fat pigs feeding at the trough...we all know it - why can't we be honest enough to admit it? It's just like GM - a few self interested people selling us all down the river..(without the paddles too) I am starting to agree that food sovereignty is an issue of my generation..and my childs too. No - it is about THAT child..cos there are millions of them. U are just too afraid to say it Mike. We Can feed the world - once we all stop being so greedy? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 1:35am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 2:58am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... As an aside Mike et al - we have had our very first local "test" GM canola crops harvested just this season, in Geraldton. "Round up Ready" canola. No word at all about how the crops went etc? How much Round Up was sprayed directly onto the crop. Was it worth it etc? Yield? rah rah. The "media" has said nothing at all? Curious. Maybe not tho. I am asking our local newspaper to do an "investigative" report on this (don't know if they are capable of that tho - they like more simple topics like super models etc ;) Many farmers here refuse to grow GM..Why? Have we heard their voices here? I have - and they have some very interesting things to say. For starters a GM crop is worth 45 bucks less per tonne..they have to buy the seed in too..they are locked into the ferts to make this crop grow..and the Round up...sound expensive yet? Yes. They are worried about x-contamination with native brassicas, they have to pay more money to keep their seed segregated in trucking and storage..etc etc... What's THAT about? It makes no sense to me? These farmers are the Stewards of the land..the custodians of soil etc? Do u agree? But - I also believe we all have a right to know everything, here - do u? Or should we just not get "panicky"? Not sure who is gullible here.. But I don't think it's me somehow..? Question stuff ...lots! Until U are happy with the answers. Don't be put off by the voices of "reason" here..they are just fence sitters - like our politicians. Perhaps it's faux pa to have an actual opinion on anything these days. I might change my name to a blokes name - just to see if I get treated differently. ;) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 5:14am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Mike - you have failed to convince me on any single point there. I suspect U are alluding to the fact that people must die and that just they way it is. Sure...lots of people feel that way. I can't - becuase I believe it lessens our Humanity, a great deal, to think that way. And if I have no Humanity - then what the hell am I doing here? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 7:16am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... Seems like there is a competition in progress between Amanda ans Mike to see who is the bigger Humanitarian. Is it Mike or Amanda? I expect both of you are doing your personal utmost for Africa (other than writing posts). As for me ,I'm as distressed about Africa as Africa would be about me if our situations were reversed. | About the Author 7th February 2012 8:15am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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bobbles says... Amanda, your arguments are not coherent and thus it is very difficult to understand if you are seeking knowledge, or just frustrated. It almost seems that once your initial concerns are rebutted you move onto other issues. Ownership or investment of a business in Australia is one topic. Distribution of food is a different topic. Even if a foreign investor owns a farm in Australia this does not mean they can choose to farm the animals as per their country of residence, or to use chemicals plants that are lawful in their resident country but not in Australia. GM again will be governed by Australian laws - irrespective of the country of residence of the farm owner. Furthermore, they will not necessarily profit from collecting the food grown and shipping it back to another country to sell. They cannot even take every cent and remove it from the country (as the Australian government taxes it and keeps an eye on what is leaving the country and where it is leaving to). Assets of a business can be frozen even easier than compulsory acquisition of land. Foreign ownership is about profiting from a business. If they can make more profit selling food to Australians then food will be sold to Australians. There is poverty and starvation on most continents. Zimbabwe used to be the “food bowl of Africa” – the problems there are not geological, and they are exceptionally complex. I’m not suggesting for a moment that it is right that children are starving, but ownership of farming businesses in Australia is simply not relevant. You cannot (particularly short of a doctorate thesis) link the two. If you want to argue about inequality of those less fortunate – then I’d recommend a separate topic, but it isn’t really a dispute. Life is unfair and by fortune of birth some of us have more opportunities than others. If you want to discuss potential solutions then that requires a lot more understanding of the issues (including politics, population control and economics) and I’d recommend a different site entirely; and I’d also recommend spending time (off the tourist track) in the regions where the issues exist. Maybe more relevant to your argument is the fact that if the photographer of the starving child was Australian they couldn’t have simply bundled her up and brought her back on a plane to be adopted – although this has nothing to do with foreign investment in Australia. Maybe also you can see that the photographer will have sought to obtain the most emotive picture – such images open wallets. If you want to change the world you’ll have more success wearing a suit and carrying an articulate coherent researched argument than standing on a street corner with a sign saying “it isn’t fair”. If you want a government to care more about the environment – then become the government. If you want a company to be more ethical – then either seek to change the laws, or influence the company (as an employee or investor). History shows this to be the most effective way. | About the Author bobbles 7th February 2012 11:53am #UserID: 6385 Posts: 6 View All bobbles's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 1:25pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Grant says... ....................../´¯/) ....................,/¯../ .................../..../ ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸ ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\ ........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...') .........\.................'...../ ..........''...\.......... _.·´ ............\..............( ..............\.............\... | About the Author 7th February 2012 1:34pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Bobbles..that is an excellent post..and I do agree with you. It doesn't mean I have to think it is right, nor accept it tho? This is a linked argument actually. U can't possible deny that our wealthy socities have risen on the backs of many of these "less fortunate in life"...? The world is experiencing climate change, for whatever reason. Food and water are becoming major issues to be faced by the coming generations. But there is no need for the suffering we see in this modern world today. And those buying up the food and water resources - their motive is not to make money....do our farmers not tell us every year that they are broke?? That price wars, drought, flood are breaking their backs? etc etc. Someone is not telling the truth here, I suspect. The very post above is a point in fact of just how immune/hardened we have become to the plight of others in this world, that we can even talk about it in such detached terms. I posted those photos because some don't seem to realise there actually is a food shortage in this world - and the photos are humanising, whether we like it or not ( I suspect not) If u cannot see the glaring point between those two girls - then I give up, truly. No, I don't need to put on a "suit" to know and say this is inherently wrong. I can vote instead ;-) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 1:57pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 6:46pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 7th February 2012 6:57pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... Here's why it's not a good idea to have a potential enemy owning tracts of your country. Suppose China finally makes good on its threat to retake Taiwan by force. The US Navy intervenes as it has said it would. Australia joins its ally, the US, in the conflict as set out in the ANZUS treaty. Do you suppose China will not utilise its toe hold in some way?. What if they release Foot and Mouth virus. Too fanciful? Crazy talk? Would you have believed that British-born Muslims would blow up the underground? | About the Author 8th February 2012 7:31am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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snottiegobble says... The simple truth is that most of us are not satisfied with just sustainable living! Apart from maybe true budhists we ALL wish to improve our lot no matter who how rich or how poor! In the western world there is the never ending need to develop, more new houses, more new estates, more new towns & bigger cities! Everyone on this forum will either have a tradie in the family or at least know one! He makes a good living building, roofing, plumbing & carpentry. Without this continual expansion he would be out of work because repair work is minimal! So we will grow & grow until the end is nigh. The seas will die first from pollution & over fishing, & the salt will rise to poison the land.( It already does in some areas!) I have a 2 year old granddaughter & another grandchild due in 3 months! I certainly wouldnt like to be in their shoes! I am Sad!! Oh BTW Daddy is a builder! | About the Author snottiegobble Bunbury/Busso (smackin the middle) 8th February 2012 6:04pm #UserID: 3468 Posts: 1458 View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Grant - it's ok mate - I actually was as drunk as a skunk! oops :) Snottie - I am with you here. In that vein also, I admire China for introducing the one child policy...that takes tremendous guts. Mike - I also agree with your very funny post :) john also lends an insight too...one that is often brutally truthful. We all have thoughts and opinions. It's all good. I just find the whole concept does not "ring true" somehow - for whatever reason. Aust - some of the worlds poorest soils, unpredictable weather and disasters, pest plagues, land rights, unreliable water supplies...big inputs - fert's, labour etc. Why buy here? Maybe because they CAN..? I don't know - but for reasons I can't quite put my finger on, I don't think it's the right thing to do - without much more thought and public input etc. I am getting a bit tired of our Govt's just doing stuff, regardless. I thought we lived in a Democracy. A luxury waterfront property, flats etc...no problem though. This is different, for me, for some reason, and I wasn't even born here... | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 8th February 2012 11:45pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 9th February 2012 12:31am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... No. And u if had read my posts properly u would see that Mike? Read them again and then get back to me. What I am saying is that it is the wealthy countries are feeding at the trough as always. Pretty similar to SG actually. and David Suzuki too? And many others. I know exactly what I am saying. Do u? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 9th February 2012 1:05am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Mike..I can't say it any better than this. I suggest u take the time to download. This is exactly my agrgument: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2010/11/16/3066634.htm Enjoy :) (ps Mike - u have been quite belittling here: "Amanda weren't you saying that starving african kids were going to buy up Australia because of climate change and thirsty foreigners would buy all our water?" Hmnnnn? | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 9th February 2012 1:40am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author 9th February 2012 10:38am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... I am afraid i have reached a low ebb in my life-- reluctantly have to agree with SG, sob!. Sustainable living is a non starter. We are programmed to amass resources and diplay our fitness to mate. Try getting a partner if all you're offering is "sustainable living". You may as well be gosh- ugly and have a communicable disease. I'm afraid we're doomed unless human females suddenly decide to prefer meek, unambitous males with a really nice vegie patch. Me,I'll bet on the guy with the sports car. | About the Author 9th February 2012 5:03pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 9th February 2012 5:53pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author Gus8 9th February 2012 10:02pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... I'll break it to you gently,Gus, Wendy did notice a bulge on Rupert but it was his wallet. Seriously ,though, it appears to be a little more complicated . What looks like pure avarice and exploitation on the part of "gold-diggers" is not quite that. Men with great wealth actually look more desirable; I call it the Merc effect. A man in a Mercedes just looks so much better to the opposite sex. That's why we're doomed. | About the Author 10th February 2012 9:27am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 10th February 2012 10:03am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author snottiegobble Bunbury/Busso (smackin the middle) 10th February 2012 8:03pm #UserID: 3468 Posts: 1458 View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 13th February 2012 8:22pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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john says... Hmm, the apricot is described as being either of Chinese origin or Armenian descent . As the Bible, Old Testament, was written by Jews in Israel about 700 BC we can come to various conclusions - The Jews are actually Chinese or Armenian. Or perhaps the biblical truth of the Bible ain't so. | About the Author 14th February 2012 8:38am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author Gus8 14th February 2012 10:43am #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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snottiegobble says... The apricot is regarded as an ayurdevic fruit(specially the bitter apricot) in Armenia, & Afghanistan so I cant see why China would lay claims to its origin! I suppose its kinda like NZ with the Chinese gooseberry As regards the bible, have you ever played the childrens party game where they sit in a circle & one child whispers something to the next & so on? Then by the time it gets back to the first child the story is either completely different or grossly exaggerated. Well,having 2000 years to circulate,thats how I see the bible! | About the Author snottiegobble Bunbury/Busso (smackin the middle) 14th February 2012 3:51pm #UserID: 3468 Posts: 1458 View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Mike says... China is the centre of diversity and the original home of apricots.By 3000 years ago their cultivation had spread to India.The hebrew word 'tappauch' baffled William Tyndale in his 16th century bible translation so he just called the golden fruit apples,not knowing the tiny sour crab apples of hundreds of years previous would be an insulting offering and also being unaware of apricots.Widespread mediterranean cultivation of apricots didn't take place until about 100bc.Interestingly the writers ofthe bible borrowed stories like the prodigal son from the indian region, and words like jezabel changed meaning once translated into english. | About the Author Cairns 14th February 2012 5:37pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Mike says... No john the name for it is way older than formal cultivation by the greeks or romans.Odd trees and dried apricots from the east came to the middle east way before so it was well known not yet properly cultivated.700 BC writings were just part of the old testament.I am not religeous but as you have familiarity refer to Solomons musing in Proverbs 25:11 and his apricot references.Jonathan Roberts in the 2001 Harper Collins reference book,'the origins of fruit and vegetables' is quite clear that the apple was an apricot. | About the Author Cairns 14th February 2012 6:18pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author Gus8 14th February 2012 8:17pm #UserID: 6467 Posts: 44 View All Gus8's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... I see your post Mike ;-) Well..I guess it's the reason Man-kind has been going to war for 1000's of years perhaps? Nothing to do with the Queen mate ;) "Resource" wars have been going on since man started walking ?? Not much has changed. Blokes still like whacking each other over the head with a club...it's just more subtle these days. Anyway, we all know that Aust is selling the baby with the bathwater...it's part of why YOU/WE/ME have a great Standard of Living...?? For the time being. I can't believe the naivety/innocence here..? Jason comes close to the truth. Go to Port Hedland, for eg, and then say that the most-likely "richest town" in Aust has at all benefitted from the many years of lucrative iron ore mining there. It's still a Sh*t hole to this day..? And yes...maybe 50% of my social circle is employed in the various mining industries, and FIFO, so I am actually fairly well informed. I have worked around the periphery of this industry in remote towns also. It's very much a way of life in WA too. The Perth Domestic Airport is actually going to be turned over to solely FIFO mining workers (Fly in Fly out) and the domestic airport is going over to the International airport. It's that huge now? WA should be "rolling in the clover"...Newsflash...it's not. Personal wealth is higher - but as far as health care and infrastructure...Pfft. The cost of living is very high - take food for eg. Wake up Australia. We are being sucked dry... :-( And when the resources have all been sold - what then? What's left? "Personal wealth" is not the answer here. (ps - the "Merc dude" just does not do it for me - they are usually substituting for a "lack" of something, somewhere... ;) | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 14th February 2012 10:56pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Mike says... Perhaps you are right amanda in that australians would not go to fight englands wars to protect the queen and motherland.We would never leave our own country short doing it at least. Everything is a resource and wars are getting less frequent with fewer casualties.Racial,political and religeous intolerance and nationalism could also be behind some conflicts. MtIsa is pretty rich as well so Port Headland must be pretty ordinary in many respects.Mining has a intense impact on a limited scale,with the exception of surface and groundwater unlike some activities that have widespread impacts on landscapes.The real issue is the race to get 'public' resources as fast as possible while relatively few benefit.If we didn't flog out the low hanging fruit ASAP we would be in better shape in the future.The power of the mining lobby and the political systems will probably ensure the staus quo remains with wealth sharing. | About the Author Cairns 14th February 2012 11:23pm #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... PS..Australians need to get out and see more of their own Country b4 they make broad and sweeping statements perhaps? Wonder how many aussies could handle spending a week in Booralooloo, Weipa, Normanton, Derby, Roper River, Doomagee etc...? Get out there and see it for yourself b4 u pass judgement perhaps. I wasn't even born here - but I have been to maybe 80% of the top end? It's a different world - but it's also a big part of "Australia" and it's identity..? It's not all about our capital cities at all!? We are very city-centric :( U can "hide" a lot in the Aust country...out of sight out of mind maybe...? If this country wasn't so damn huge - u might care a lot more perhaps..? EG: hands up who has a) heard of Ningaloo reef and b) been there? Did u know that oil exploration licences are being granted for this Marine Park? Are we selling our soul? I say YES. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 14th February 2012 11:34pm #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Mike says... I have been to most of those places and many more obscure and dealt with mining issues alot.It doesn't mean my opinion should carry more weight than city confined or foreign born folk or that such people don't care about environmental problems. What are the sweeping statements and judgements passed you are talking about?I find that many people actually do judge isuues on their merits and are not swayed by sweeping statements.The great barrier reef,wet tropics and tasmanian wilderness were largely protected because of city muscle of ordinary voters who made a difference. | About the Author Cairns 15th February 2012 12:00am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... Bobbles says (and see the hypocrasy here?) your arguments are not coherent and thus it is very difficult to understand if you are seeking knowledge, or just frustrated. It almost seems that once your initial concerns are rebutted you move onto other issues. Well...I didn't bring up God and Mens inferiority complex that's for sure :D | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 15th February 2012 1:55am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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Jason says... Unless my understanding is wrong the Apricot originated in the region around Kyrgyzstan, that's where they find all the good Apricots varieties like the White ones (That I've wanted a seed from for like 12 years and never yet got one yet :( ). Where ever you find the most diversity in a species that's it's home base or perhaps in the Humans case where they cross bred with another species or maybe those are both one and the same thing!.. in any case the Apricot came from that area around Kyrgyzstan :) | About the Author Jason Portland 15th February 2012 2:13am #UserID: 637 Posts: 1217 View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 15th February 2012 2:16am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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amanda says... It's one thing to "care about" environmental problems et al - that part is dead easy. It's quite another to actually walk your talk and actually DO something? Yes - many of us care...but what do we actually "DO"...? I don't do much, to be honest. Nor do most people I know...? All too busy raising kids and paying major mortgages and credit cards? Who really has time to care the Black Rhino will become extinct in the next 20yrs...? Just one creature. There-in the problem with our Society perhaps. | About the Author amanda19 Geraldton, 400km North of Perth 15th February 2012 2:46am #UserID: 2309 Posts: 4607 View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees |
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| About the Author Jason Portland 15th February 2012 4:11am #UserID: 637 Posts: 1217 View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees |
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GardeningAustraliaWanabee says... It looks like help of a medical kind is needed for one who clearly has lost their marbles. I haven't been to Ningaloo reef and never will, but it has no relevance to food security. Join an environmental group or start your own, rather then belittle members because they don't live in your small world. | About the Author 15th February 2012 7:27am #UserID: 0 Posts: View All 's Edible Fruit Trees |
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snottiegobble says... Want to do something worthwhile for the environment & your kids kids etc??? Well support sea shepherd.org financially or at least one of your active groups re.saving black cockatoos, gas fracking,etc! Or world heritage organisations, for tigers, rhinos,Sumatran elephants,orangs etc. We can all sit & complain with our fingers here & upset each other, but what good does it do????? | About the Author snottiegobble Bunbury/Busso (smackin the middle) 15th February 2012 12:18pm #UserID: 3468 Posts: 1458 View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees |
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