soil wetting agent

peetah starts with ...
i bought some brunnings easy wetta soil wetting agent and did not read the back so i do not know if it is safe to use on my citrus or other fruits. it only mentions garden beds,potted plants and hanging baskets.can anyone help?

Dekka says...
Hello Peetah, I'm not sure that Julie's advice has a very scientific basis (no offence, Julie) so here is a link that explains a bit about wetting agents for food crops.

http://jerry-coleby-williams.blogspot.com/2007/02/wetting-agents-are-you-buying-trouble.html

Brad says...
Peetah - you didn't state what soils you have. They may not need wetting, if applied water soaks in evenly and leaves the top surface damp.

If this isn't the case, make sure you wet the soil before applying the soil wetter and then soak it in well. Citrus will then respond well to a deep soaking (slow drip)

hth

Wazzbat says...
I've given up on "soil wetting agents" as such and now I just buy the cheapest eco friendly washing up detergents I can find at Coles. They seem to be very concentrated and appear to work better than the soil wetting agents you get from Bunnings and nurseries etc. You do get a few bubbles but who cares? I apply the detergent directly to the area and then water in well. Just make sure the detergents don't have anything too dangerous in them.

Julie says...
amanda, I don't have the link now, but there is a list on the Choice Magazine website which tells you the most eco-friendly detergents.

I can't remember if it was only laundry detergents or wash-up liquids. Maybe it doesn't matter.

Wazzbat says...
Been using on my lawn for about 2 years and early on I tried a few test patches during summer and it worked really well. My lawn is Zoysia Empire by the way. Since then, I have used it throughout my gardens with no signs of damage to any plants. But my garden is fairly new. I gutted it years back and have been slowly planting over the last 2 years since I finished paving, retaining etc.
So far - So good.

Brad says...
Amanda - how much clay have you added to the soils here?
in my opinion, you would likely be better off changing the properties of the top level of sand so that you (next owner) don't need soil wetting in the future. it might be more expensive initially, but to me it makes more sense. From my reading this seems to be current 'best practice' (adjust for properties of soil and bought in minerals):
if you can get rock dust and clay (your own blend or commercial), and let it soak into the top 10cm or deeper, you should be able to reduce or remove the problem. please let us know if this hasn't worked :)
lets say you have 1000m^2 to treat. you want 5% or so clay in the top 10cm. so you need 0.5m^3 for this area. you want the fine particles and organic matter to coat the sand as much as possible. pull back any mulch, cover the surface with your ammendments maybe lightly scratch it in (no big dig!) then water it in as much as you can (any more storms coming?) and cover again with mulch (organics, eg manure in between is good too - encourage worms to do the mixing).
this is the premise behind 'popular' products like bentonite clay, soil solver and sand remedy. there seems to be conflicting thoughts on when to mix - some mix immediately, some come back and mix weeks or months later. have you talked to ag dept or similar people up there at all?
PS I',impressed you're doing all this while selling up

amanda says...
Hi Brad - I just couldn't afford to import the amount of soil that I would have needed...as it was I had 20 tonnes of pure clay delivered (but it was free) I have used about 80% of this...now I just top up where I need more - as a liquid.

I do pretty much what u have suggested (see "gardening in Perth sands" topic)- and things are improving every year now :) It's a slow process though - just not enough rain to keep things "active" in the soil...it's a catch 22

Wazzbat - I have had great results with the EcoStore dishwashing liquid...only need a few drops and the job is done! The two same bushes I experimented on are both fine and happy...and the worms too :) I am getting loads of mileage out of one $3 bottle - so much more effective.

Jimmy - we are looking for a Climate Change! Just think how much fun I will have down in Leschenault with double the rainfall!? yippeeee!

Wazzbat says...
Sugar cane mulch seems to hold in the water well after it breaks down. It's only early days for my gardens but My soil is slowly but surely improving and I put a lot of it down to the sugar cane mulch?

snottiegobble says...
Even here Amanda, with all that rain there are areas still bone dry under the mulch & matting weeds! I think thats why the spring wild flower show varies so much! They only really boom after particularly good soaking rains! Kings Park are always a good show so they must be helped along with irrigation, dont you think?

amanda says...
OK Brad - I am half way thru the trees now :) Have really soaked in the clay in 'liquid' form (and used the Eco store dish liquid to make sure the soil was totally wetted b4 clay application) They have already had their manures etc and threw more worms in too! :)

I will let u know how I go ...(will change a row of trees to the rotating microsprayer too - just to see what happens)

Thanks for your tips :)

amanda says...
You were right Brad - the clay did need to be 'worked in' a bit more than I realised - maybe that's the step I have been missing out on! :) Even with the wetting agent a lots of hosing - I still had repellance/total dryness 5mm or so down...

I cheated tho' and used the hose to blast it in (oops there goes my crumb structure for awhile...) the scratching-in was too back unfriendly :D

Yea - I have to run my sprinklers only when the weather is calm - if that's not possible I turn them down and let it kind flop/slop around as bigger droplets - of course they don't have much of a wetting zone like this - but at least the trees get watered.

I have a great toggler for my lawn that delivers larger droplets for windy areas - and also the auto retic pop-ups, for the lawn, has been designed for higher winds.

I am hoping they have invented something similar for trees...(my retic heads really need to spray upside down I think...would make more sense wouldn't it ;)

amanda says...
Great Julie! It's been on mind for a few days now - just thinking of how to make them myself. It just doesn't seem right to have them gushing up into the air to me...?

It's funny how we get fixated on what is 'traditional' sometimes.

amanda says...
Hey Brad - yea they have already been here - not much help when it comes to fruit trees :(
They recommended that Netafim in-line dripper hose - but I just wasn't happy with it after 2yrs so pulled it out and put low level sprinklers in (they don't cause misting) The trees are much happier for it, too.
I still have it in my veg patch and I am not liking it there either - it only wets the soil where the actual dripper outlet is - and the rest stays dry (I have 30cm spacing between lines - recommended for sandy loam too) so then the dry areas of topsoil become water repellant...sucks hey?? :D

The proper weeper hose may have been good to try - but I don't think I can be bothered changing my set-up again now! eek!

amanda says...
Yea Brad - probably shouldn't have bought property on top of a sand dune either ;-) Hindsight is 20/20...

It would take a lot of drippers to wet the top soil in a 2sqm area. They are also designed for slow and deep watering - which is great for natives with deep roots...but fruit trees are not quite the same...and most of goodies they need are in the topsoil.

I kind of feel that if only 1/4 or less of the top soil is moist then the tree is only getting 1/4 of it's food. With the Netafim - my trees had no surface feeder roots....at all.

I am not a fan of drippers in sandy loams....and importing soil is all good - but without the essential ingredient - good climate and water - it's just part of the soil profile too....sometimes you have to work with constraints you can't change.. :)

amanda says...
LOL...sounds good SG! It seems that it's another dry spring again...? and we might be stuck here for a long while...damn global economy!?

I hope it's not like last summer. I found a great article discussing the pro's and cons of different irrigation systems - but can't relocate it now...it was really interesting. One of the problems they highlighted with drippers was restricted root growth - which is what I experienced.

Now I have both drippers and sprayers on some of my fruit trees (on independent pipes) and the others have sprayers with sub-reticulated waste water....this has been more flexible for me..

You have to hedge your bets sometimes! :D

Brad says...
glad there's an improvement for you there amanda. hope it holds and continues for summer!

Wazzbat says...
I hit my lawns up this morning with some dishwashing liquid then water with the temp reaching 35.5C from knowhere. Let the retic run for a little bit for the first time since I turned it off earlier in the year. Just a one off though with lower temps and some more rain forecast this week.

Glad to here you've found a cheaper alternative Amanda! Just a pity it doesn't stay wet longer hey? Maybe you need about 500mm of mulch cover???

gus says...
http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/

Just to confuse the picture here

Wazza McG says...
Rah Rah Amanda I agree. However, I thought I read in a thread somewhere on this site that not all clays are friendly - the colour is an indication.

I reckon there may be some clays that when mixed with sand could turn into a compound similar to concrete.

Everything I have read suggests that sand, loam/silt and clay make up the ideal "Soil texture" - the following link is the gist to what I have read in the past.

http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/farming-management/soil-water/soil/small-farm-soil-physical-properties

Itdepends says...
Don't know if that would work but liquid fertilizers (like seasol) or dissolvable ferts like Thrive are one of the most expensive ways to buy fertilizer. So using one as a soil wetting agent (which it isn't designed for) won't save you money.

amanda says...
Too true CSS..! Speedy explained it in another thread and I still have trouble with it.. Luckily I have a good Mg:Ca ratio :)
"Magnesium has 1.4 times the effect/neutralising value on pH as Ca"

Clay is working really well for me anyway...and the clay I use is direct from a brickworks - so it's the 'real deal'.

There also seems to be the problem with organic matter simply "vanishing" in sandy soils (?)....which Speedy explains a bit of here:

"Speedy says...
pH is the negative logarithmic value of hydrogen ions (H+)in the soil.
In a strict sense it has nothing to do with lime or calcium needs of a soil.
It's a very common misunderstanding.
I'm not accusing you of that at all, but it helps to explain things.
You could adjust soil pH with cautic soda or hydrochloric acid but nothing good would come of that.
A soil could be neutral or basic and still need calcium.

Pure water is neutral. Expressed as H2O is in fact a balance of the same number of Hydroxyl ions (-OH) as hydrogen ions
(H+).
When H+ outnumber -OH the solution is acidic, or lower pH.
pH 6 indicates 10 times more H+ than pH 7; 100 times as many as pH 8 and so on.

A salt is the result of the reaction between an acid and a base. ie.the Hydrogen of the acid is replaced by a metal or other cation.


In the chemistry of soil the bases, Ca++, Mg++, K+, Na+ ( and NH4+ )
are cations (as expressed above) in solution in the water in the soil.
Trace elements Zn, Fe, Cu, Mn are in the soil are cations also.
Having a positive charge, they are attracted to and adsorbed to clay and humus particles.
The clay and humus having a negative charge.
Plant roots can ovecome these bonds via weak acids excreted and negative charges to take up the base nutients or TEs they need at the time by excanging them with H+ ions back to the humus or clay.

In drier climates water is a limiting factor in bioactivity within the soil.
Alkaline salts , salts of Alkali metals,K,Na, and Alkaline earth metals Ca,Mg, (ammonium is basic but not alkaline) tend to hang around in the soil and not be leached.
The over abundance of -OH and -CO3 tends to degrade OM in the soil.

With more water (within reason) comes more leaching of salts, also, more opportunity for more activity throughout the year.
More activity = more organic acids produced.
Also more bioactivity = more complexing of salts into organic compounds.

That's why I have the additions of compost and mulch with resident fungi in my Biolytix zone.

Humus, through the appropriate digestion of OM also buffers negative effects of salts comming from the house

So gradually the soil pH drops to relatively more acidic (less basic).

It's a big subject and I don't pretend to have all the answers, thats why I look to natural processes, cause nature knows does have lots of answers. "


Don't know about you guys - but I just can't seem to 'feed' my un-clayed sand enough OM..? I suspect the problem is the lack of clay and thus it's inability to 'hold onto' the OM as humus? It's then prone to degrading as Speedy mentions..?

amanda says...
Yes Jimmy - and that's what should happen :) As Mr Handreck states (for sandy soils):
"OM seems to just vanish, because there is no clay to protect it"

Clay also also has a higher cation exchange capacity - so it can hold onto (and exchange) all those "positively charged" elements (eg Mg+2..) with the plant...so it's a "bank" of sorts.

(You can use gypsum in saline sands, for eg, as the calcium displaces the sodium on the soil particles - allowing it to be flushed away. Obviously the soil 'likes' to bind the calcium more than the sodium, for this to happen...?)

Our sands have very poor cation exchange capacities (CEC) - so slow release fert's or small frequent applications of liquid fert's work best...otherwise you are just literally flushing your $ away...

So I guess you can add as much compost as u like - but without some clay to "hold" it there - you will have to keep adding large amounts of it every year..?

It's really interesting how it all works - and I also find that "general" gardening advice for these sands - is not always very helpful and far too general..? :-(

MaryT says...
Thanks Amanda for the warning about prices of agar agar in "health food" stores; I don't know how they get away with it. Almost everything they sell is available elsewhere at cheaper prices and not necessarily healthy.