Loquats n Winter (forum)

amanda starts with ...
Does anyne think/feel that loquats are a bit semi-deciduous (in cooler climates) in winter at all? Mine looking a bit sick but carrying fruit. The new leaves are small despite fertiliser and water. It's about my most un-healthy looking fruit tree at present.

Time: 17th June 2009 1:55am

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Julie says...
No, they don't seem to lose their leaves at all,and it gets pretty cold in the hills - colder than your area I should think.

I have no idea why it is looking sick, but I will mention one thing. On a few occasions that plants have died with no apparent reason, when I dug them up I found they had been allowed to get root-bound at an early stage when they were growing, though this wasn't apparent when I planted them.

Not suggesting this is the cause, just something to think about.



Time: 17th June 2009 2:06pm

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Julie says...
Should have explained better. By root-bound, I meant the main roots had curled around, and as they grew, gradually strangled the plant.

New roots will grow down and out, but roots which are already curled round don't straighten out. They just get thicker. Just something to watch out for.

Time: 18th June 2009 12:36pm

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amanda says...
Thanks Julie - I was/am really careful about root-bound trees so I think it shld be ok. The only thing I have read about loquats is that they are not fussed on alkaline soil - which mine is.

The leaf margins are heavily 'burnt' looking - at first I thought it was just the typical summer/wind problem I get here. But then the new growth (now it's cool) is stunted and starting to burn also. It's been given sheep poo, blood n bone + 10% potash and lots of water. It seem to really deteriorate when it flowered??? I hope I don't loose it :((

Time: 18th June 2009 3:53pm

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HappyEarth says...
Hey Amanda,

Not sure whats happening to your loquat. I know on thing though, loquats are a very tough tree ... will handle the cold, wind and very poor soils without the slightest problem.

I dont water or feed my loquats at all. maybe your being too kind too it?

Rich
www.happyearth.com.au

Time: 18th June 2009 7:11pm

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amanda says...
Yea HappyEarth - I was thinking that I could have burnt it thru' over feeding? The only other things that fit the picture are K+ deficiency (I know it's not this), sodium or chloride burn (no other plants nearby suffering this) - so maybe Nitrogen burn.

Is there anything than can remedy this? I have given it a couple of good soakings - all I could think of.

Time: 19th June 2009 10:30am

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amanda says...
Hmnn..how complicated is this....the addition of too much potassium or calcium can lead to magnesium deficiency - giving the above symptoms. An imbalance of calcium in alkaline calcerous soils can do the same. The addition of too many soluble salts can give the same symtoms thru salinity damage. It just goes to show u how careful u need to be about chucking stuff around without knowing the consequences!! :)

I picked up this from a web-site:

Fertilizing and Growth Rate:
Loquats are very sensitive to soil salinity. Since Phoenix area water is already high in salts, the safest thing to do is to not use any chemical nitrogen fertilizers. Soil amendments such as compost are still beneficial, as are mild organic fertilizers such as fish emulsion 0-10-10.

He also went on to talk about the Mg deficiency thing.

So, HappyEarth - u are right about not fertilising - I think I will just stick to manure in future and keep an eye on the Mg issues! thanks for your help.



Time: 20th June 2009 11:59am

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virginny says...
Loquats are sensitive to pH and do not like alkaline additions such as detergents, lime ,or wood ash or leachate from concrete.

Time: 23rd June 2009 5:46pm

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amanda says...
Thanks virginny - I don't use any of those things as my sub soil already alkaline. The tree is 3 yrs old and probly sitting on top of a big limestone rock knowing my luck!! ;)

Time: 24th June 2009 9:21am

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amanda says...
Please help?!! This is my really ill looking loquat - I am not convinced I have burnt it enuf' to do this much damage? (I am pretty conservative with even organic fertilisers)... It had the same problem last year but not nearly as bad... I was thinking magnesium deficiency?
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2

Time: 30th June 2009 1:10pm

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Julie says...
I'm not completely sure, but I think you can send a leaf sample to the Dept of Ag, who might help. Best to check first, as I could be wrong.

Time: 30th June 2009 1:54pm

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Dekka says...
Hi Amanda, If the same thing happened last year was it as the weather got colder, i.e. beginning winter? If it was, then I would say you have Sodium (salt) and Calcium displacing Potassium causing a K deficiency. I always think it is best to treat the main nutrient issues before even looking at the minor nutrients like Magnesium. You can treat it by flushing with very dilute NPK but make sure it's one with a low Nitrogen content as high N will make it worse. Wetting agents can also exascerbate the problem. Have you used any recently?

Time: 30th June 2009 2:09pm

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amanda says...
Hi Dekka..I thought the same last yr too. As I live right on the coast I am quite careful with salinity issues so I hose off my fruit trees a few times in summer and then sprinkle with gypsum and soak with the sprinkler for an hr or so (over n above the normal watering with 4 x 4 l/hr drippers 3-4 hrs twice weekly). The symptoms are there always but have been gradually worsening.


Then I give them a good nudge with K+ due to my sandy soil. I give them straw and clay - both good sources - in addition to manure and blood n bone + 10% K2SO4. I have given the loquat a "bit extra" as I thought the symptoms were K+ deficiency too.

Now I think that maybe the extra K+ has booted off the Mg (as it is wont to do) and all the H2O has leached it...??

That's really interesting about the wetta soil tho'! I use Richgrow Eziwet granules ("environmentally friendly"..)and I use heaps! When I change the drippers over to microsprayers the clay will be able to do this job better and I hope to lose the wetta soil.

I did apply it just b4 the symptoms got a lot worse too...what's in it do u reckon? How does it make it worse?









Time: 30th June 2009 4:36pm

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Dekka says...
I believe some wetting agents can contain Alkyl Napthalene Sodium Sulfonate and even sometimes water softeners that contain more Sodium... not good for your salinity woes.
"Environmentally friendly" will only be in regard to the surfactant so who knows what synthetic cocktail your giving to your fruit trees???
Here's a link to an article by Jerry Coleby Williams for your interest.

http://jerry-coleby-williams.blogspot.com/2007/02/wetting-agents-are-you-buying-trouble.html

P.S Is the application of Gypsum in order to combat the deflocculation caused by ongoing use of soil wetter?
It's usually used on heavy clays. What is its effect in your sandy situation?

Time: 30th June 2009 9:52pm

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amanda says...
Hey Dekka - u are very on the ball like speedy... the main ingredient of wetting agents is usually polyethylene glycol (PEG) .. don't know about mine but it's classed as waterway/earthworm friendly and my worms certainly don't mind it. I think I might contact Richgrow for the ingredients (wish me luck...?!).

I don't like using it as it's a short term solution (and the smell of it actually makes me think twice) but claying is bloody hard work and it takes time for me to do. Me n my wheelbarrow will get there eventually ... hopefully b4 i get too much older cos I'm running out of puff!! :) Clay is a very permanent solution in sandy soils and claying is performed extensively in my agricultural area - I love what it has done so far - where I have used it. It's all about $ for us at present - as we have 30 acres to treat.

Great Coleby Williams site - thanks. I am using wetta soil in the meantime - until i don't have to..if that makes sense? Water is God here and I have to make the most of it while I can.. if the subsoil doesn't get wet then it's a 2 grand water bill for me (my husband really... ;) ) - but it's a bit of a disaster. The first 2 yrs of starting our garden we only got 200mm each yr. We went 8 months without a drop this summer. Every time the soil gets "disturbed"/driven on etc - it becomes repellant..very frustrating.

I use the gypsum to displace sodium on soil/clay particles. And as I have alkaline soil - it's good as it adds Ca but doesn't increase my pH. Ca is actually the element for better flocculation. Increased Mg works in the reverse. My soil may have high Mg to Ca ratio like Speedys - I will need a soil test to know for sure - but my bedrock is limestone. Just because the Mg is there doesn't mean it's available tho'.

Funnily enuf' I tried the agar-agar trick of Jerrys - but my situation too severe and it didn't work very well - it was also v.expensive.

It's all a bit trickey hey?! I am going to give the oquat some Mg and see what happens - got nothing to lose and tocixity shouldn't be a problem - I will update post if it works (or not...!?) Thanks for your help and any more u can give?

Time: 30th June 2009 11:03pm

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amanda says...
Hey Dekka (or anyone else?)...this is really weird - the photos show a loquat plant I got from Tas1 Trees in Perth only 2 or 3 weeks ago - I haven't done anything to it at all!

It's been tucked in amoungst the other plants on the patio and I just grabbed it to plant 2day. Maybe loquats are allergic to Geraldton!!?

It did have a little bit of brown margins and the shop guy said it was from the weather. The other photo is the other tree in about autumn 07 (about 1 yr in the ground)

I am confused now..... :(
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3

Time: 1st July 2009 7:43pm

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Jantina says...
Strangely ,in both pictures the new growth looks ok and I would have thought that new growth was the most vulnerable.

Time: 1st July 2009 8:25pm

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Dekka says...
Water quality?

Time: 1st July 2009 8:37pm

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Julie says...
Actually, my loquat looks like the second picture, but I wasn't worried about it. I thought it might be sunburn - remember the week or two of extremely hot weather we had last summer?

It is loaded with small fruit, so I'll wait and see.

Amanda, I mentioned this elsewhere, but when my loquat was quite young, I cut out the centre. This has kept it low - around two metres - and still has more fruit than I know what to do with. I'm told dried loquats taste like dried apricots, but haven't tried it!

Time: 1st July 2009 8:40pm

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Dekka says...
Here's a USA link that talks about Mg and K in similar soils to your own...might shed some light.

http://www.phoenixtropicals.com/loquat.html

Time: 1st July 2009 8:42pm

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amanda says...
Thanks Dekka - have just been in there! Sounds like Mg may be the problem from what this guy says...some other sites also mention that Mg deficiency becoming more of a problem in orchards with all the extra potassium they are now given..

I found an ag dept reference to the green 'arrow' that's left on the leaf..like mine - and the young leaves are quite chlorotic too.

If the Mg doesn't work then I'll revisit K and salinity - after I check out the wettasoil (that was a good tip..i hadn't thought much about using it b4)

Mg is important for our "heart health" incidentally..

Julie - u are in for a treat! drool...

Time: 1st July 2009 9:53pm

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amanda says...
No luck with the wetta soil - looks harmless enuf?:

Inert mineral

Time: 2nd July 2009 12:07am

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amanda says...
Hi Dekka n Julie... Dekka - the tap water here is:
Electrical conductivity: 140 microS/cm

(1 dSm = 1000 microS/cm)

and the hardness is 105 - 110 mg/L

(which I think is "hard")
What do they mean by "hard"? We get a lot of white crusty build-up on taps, kettles etc - which I assume is calcium based? Can u help me with any of this?

Julie - I am going to (try to..) graft some of the sick loquat onto the new seedling b4 it's too late - what graft method should I try?

Thanks guys... I'd appreciate any help as I am upset about my tree :(

Time: 4th July 2009 7:16pm

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Dekka says...
Hi Amanda,
I did a little "googling" and from what I have read, the effects of salinity in water are relative to the soil type. with .3dSm being acceptable for sandy soils; whereas clay can 'lock up' more salt so .6dSm is OK. Your water is well within the acceptable range.
As far as hardness goes there are several different measurements of hardness.
1.General Hardness(gH) which is concerned with the amount of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the solution. Amounts greater than 200ppm are considered hard(depending where your from) and water with between 50 and 100ppm is considered soft.
2.Carbonate Hardness(kH) is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate. These apparently have a stabilising effect upon pH.
3.Temporary Hardness is the amount of these ions that can be removed through boiling.
4. Permanent hardness is that which cannot be removed.

Time: 5th July 2009 12:06pm

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Dekka says...
As a supplementary question... Did you have your own water testing done or were you provided with those figures by your water utility? These reason I am curious is that your description of having a lot of scale build-up doesn't seem to correspond with those numbers... hmmm...interesting???

Time: 5th July 2009 4:02pm

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Julie says...
amanda, I'm cluless about grafting, I was going to get a local orchardist to do it for me! So no help from me I'm afraid.

The one time a friend (now gone) tried to show me I was terrified of cutting myself, he moved the knife so fast. So I made a hash of it.

Time: 5th July 2009 7:03pm

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amanda says...
Thanks Dekka n Julie - the figures are from water corp....on Fri i picked up a water testing kit to send off - it's only 60 bucks and I think a good investment? Locals keep saying the water is salty etc - so I will clear up once and for all! :)

I also got a proper soil testing kit (that cost a great deal more...owch) and out of the 6 samples I am going to dig a big deep hole and get the subsoil tested. I think this could be a factor as it's "yellow deep sands" according to my search - calcerous, highly alkaline and possibily saline due to lack of good leaching rain...i was thinking that as the trees send roots into this zone - the sensitive one's (like loquat) can't cope?

I will post the results as it might be interesting to match the plant pathology to the cause. Thanks for info Dekka.

Julie - me too! I will do some research n see what I can find!

Time: 6th July 2009 9:49am

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Dekka says...
Hi Amanda,
Good idea to test your soil and eliminate a lot of guess work. If you dig a neat hole you should see a profile of soil layers. If you sample from each layer and shake up in a jar with distilled water, after letting stand for five minutes you can test the water with your cheaper kit.
Looking forward to hearing your results.

Time: 6th July 2009 10:50am

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amanda says...
Hey Dekka - have sent the soil off to the experts...they can do cation exchange value etc... It's interesting that ALL of my "NON-fruiting" trees thrive and don't show any of these symptoms!! :(
Perhaps it's what I am doing or they are just so in-bred and thus not hardy?

Time: 8th July 2009 11:04am

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amanda says...
Hi Dekka (n all) water test results back...seems scheme water is plethoric but worst offender is salinity (class 3 - high risk):

Chloride - 300 mg/l

Chloride toxicity is taken into account with salinity evaluation as chloride sensitive plants are all in the low salt tolerance range. Most tree crops and other woody perennial plants are sensitive to low concentrations of Chloride while most annual crops are not, though less sensitive crops may be affected at higher concentration.
Water high in chloride may cause foliage burn; especially on salt sensitive plants starting at the leaf tip and progressing back along the leaf edges as severity increases. Excessive leaf burn is often accompanied by abnormal early leaf drop and defoliation.
Chloride can be toxic to plants with low salt tolerance when taken up by roots and absorbed by plants.
Chloride with Sodium makes up the salt molecule.

Potential Problems

Chloride Chloride 71

Time: 14th July 2009 8:12pm

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Dekka says...
Ouch! That news has got to hurt. What are you going to do?

Time: 14th July 2009 10:11pm

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amanda says...
UMMM....any ideas Dekka?? I don't know...

Time: 14th July 2009 10:51pm

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Dekka says...
No ideas that aren't expensive.

http://www.psifilters.com.au/Large-RO-Units.htm

What you really need is some help from Huey. How's your rain dance? (Sorry, Amanda, not a time for levity.)

Time: 15th July 2009 8:24am

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Dekka says...
Amanda,
Here's a bit more info ...although you probably know it already.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/resources/soils/salinity/crops/tolerance-irrigated

You should keep on adding clay to your soil and probably avoid any chemical fertilisers. Also, I would seriously consider digging in a heap of charcoal.

Time: 15th July 2009 8:36am

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amanda says...
Thanks Dekka! looks like I have homework 2 do.. ;) No wonder the water here tastes so bad..too bad if you are on a low salt diet hey!?

In the water corps annual reports they never report salinity values...now I know why. The actual measured hardness was 145 mg/L here - not their published 106 mg/L. And the EC was 1663 uS/cm !! (they told me 140 uS/cm) ???

There is also moderate sodium and a moderate SAR (sodium absorbtion ratio) which probably not helping my water repellance?

My rainwater tanks nearly full (we have had 150mm rain last month or so) so I might try your suggestions and a good rain water flush. Speedy has some good ideas too. Does the charcoal adsorb the salt ions?

Time: 15th July 2009 10:53am

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Dekka says...
I don't exactly know what the charcoal does regarding the salt. I think it prevents the loss of leachable nutrients in soil water and their retention and more consistant presence in some way reduces the concentration of sodium and chlorides... Like I said, I don't really know but there is evidence on ancient agricultural lands where charcoal has been used and the soil is still good whereas areas nearby are salt effected or impoverished.

Time: 15th July 2009 5:56pm

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amanda says...
I have a bag of 'real' charcoal so I figure it would b a good experiment to try....other than that I will either have to move or learn to rain dance.. :))))

I will run these results past the water corp tho' - I'm not sure that these levels are very good for infants - in some towns near here the water is so salty that the water corp provides free bottled water to make up infant formula/bottles.

Time: 15th July 2009 6:26pm

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amanda says...
Hi all, has anyone had ay experience using those magnetic units that go round your water pipe? Apparently they act as water softners and remove salt, iron etc. I am skeptical but would be inerested in anyones experience or knowledge?

Time: 16th July 2009 10:36am

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amanda says...
OK - Magnetics for H2O treatment: 3 out of 3 testimonials I got in personal contact with today - believe these units have worked for them. They no longer have scale deposits in their bathrooms for eg. Apparently the magnetic field doesn't remove anything just changes the way the ions behave. The only "proof" of this has been from soil sample testing -not the actual water itself.

Is there anybody out there using one of these units?

Time: 16th July 2009 9:46pm

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kert says...
Amanda there is a "sucker born every minute" and it seems they then contribute to this forum.

Time: 17th July 2009 9:02am

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amanda says...
Kert - u really should do your homework b4 you open your big mouth (then I might take your input more seriously and u would look a lot less daft than u currently seem)..I guess that means the horticulture and mining industries that happen to us these are suckers too?



Time: 17th July 2009 12:12pm

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amanda says...
Hi Dekka et al.. The soil test results are back. The original soil is sadly deficient in just about everything except calcium, magnesium and SODIUM and CHLORIDE...! buggar.

The soil chloride ranges from 11 - 42 mg/kg (which is "Intermediate level") but the subsoil is 6mg/kg....which means is either not retaining any salt or - it is not leaching down due to lack of rain?

pH is perfect at least! Don't need Mg either.

I will need to test under the tree or do a leaf analysis. I think maybe the retic water at 300mg/kg + the natural levels of up to 42mg/kg is pushing the levels over the limit?

It could be a deficiency of one of the other trace elements like copper maybe? These levels were extremely low.

The theory behind the "distorted" magnetics is to do with changing the way the cations n anions behave in the water...the idea being that they are more readily leached from the soil. The before n after testing on soil samples seem to confirm this theory. The effect is non-storable (ie can't save it in a tank). It would cost about $800 and can be self installed. Interesting ... think I will keep researching it.

Time: 17th July 2009 8:14pm

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Dekka says...
Hi Amanda,
I would say the reason for the lesser amount in your subsoil is the latter about no leaching from lack of rain.
One thing you could consider that may help in a small way is a living mulch of Tetragonia tetragonoides grown on top of your existing mulch. It takes up salt quite happily and tastes good too. It will also assist with moisture retention and creating humidity around your plants. I think I posted a pic of it growing under my Citrus somewhere on this forum; under the heading "Living mulch" ....might be worth a try?

Time: 17th July 2009 10:58pm

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About the Author Dekka
Newcastle
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amanda says...
It's funny u should mention that Dekka .. as I was pondering using salt bush around the tree drip line and then harvesting it (the salt) via pruning..I had just been reading that many coastal plants take up to 90% sodium instead of to potassium! ... don't know about the chloride tho' - but maybe it would be easier to leach it if it's not combined with Na?

Salt bush grows well here .. I tried warrigals last year but couldn't get them going - too hot maybe?

Worth a try for sure! I will try some of your other suggestions too. Thanks for your help - I will update with a photo if it all works! It's been a great learning curve if nothing else. It's interesting that the lowest level of 11 mg/kg chloride is from 'virgin' soil that has never had retic water etc and the highest level of 42 is from around the loquat... :(((

Time: 18th July 2009 9:56am

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton.WA
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amanda says...
OOPS! didn't have my eye on the ball with the loquat tree...look wot I found today...a big stem canker....(blush..) I have treated but does anyone know if they recover very well from one this big?
Might be time to speed learn grafting!?
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Time: 18th July 2009 6:46pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton.WA
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amanda says...
Hi All - just to follow up - this is chloride burn (and likely sodium also) due to saline irrigation water. Chloride burns from the tips up and sodium burns the margins also.

According to the gurus it is occurring all along the northern coast of WA and is due to drought/water stress, marginal growing climates (eg: mangoes) and rising salts in bore water due to lack of rains for re-charging with fresh water. (and salty scheme water such as ours in Geraldton).
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Time: 11th August 2009 10:17am

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Brendan says...
Hi amanda, I have a canefarmer friend who says those magnetic water conditioners DO WORK.
One day I will buy one, he reckons they're not cheap.

http://www.deltawater.com.au/rural.html

You are lucky getting rain, we've had NO rain here for ~8 weeks !!! Boy it's dry :-(
(It is our dry season but).

Please give that loquat tree heaps of composted cow manure, gypsum & mulch :-)

Time: 16th August 2009 6:48am

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About the Author Brendan
Mackay, Q
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amanda says...
Hi Brendan... I was talking to a S.African plumber who has worked in many places in the world and reckons Aust and England have the worst water he's ever seen/tasted....they use the magnets alot in UK and he said they definately made a difference to the plumbing etc...so I am going to give it a go - it's $800 for a magnet for our main line - not too bad $...

Our winter will be finished by Sept..that means no rain until next april/may (unless we get cyclones off the north-west coast - then we may get a lucky summer rain) I get a bit depressed in summer!! :(

The loquat is nearly caput...the infection has ringbarked it...i'm heartbroken! Can't buy any named varieties in WA .. it sucks!

Time: 16th August 2009 11:24am

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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kert says...
Yes, I've noticed a marked improvement in all my fruit since I had an exorcisement done on the malign elements lurking in my pipes . The Haitan voodoo spiritualist sacrificed a few chickens and sprinkled the blood near the offending pipes . You cannot believe the results . They are incredible .

Time: 2nd December 2009 1:07pm

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Phil@Tyalgum says...
Hey Amanda one last resort you could try with your loquat is to air layer it if it is still alive. I did that with one I wanted to take with me earlier this year when I moved house and it seems to have worked. Might be a way of preserving the tree, then start over.
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Time: 2nd December 2009 4:24pm

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About the Author TyalgumPhil
Murwillumbah
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