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Mandarin Leaf Curling Down

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Gradmaster Yoda starts with ...
Hey I've noticed my mandarin tree has leaves curling downwards and over time it's "spreading" and happening to more of the leaves. I'm assuming it's just the cold wet weather and that the soil hasn't had a chance to dry out much. Just thought I'd post to see if anyone thinks it could be something more serious or if I can just wait it out. Cheers.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
31st May 2019 11:35am
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Julie says...
I have a mandarin in a Bonsai bag - several years old now. It had this same problem, and I never figured out the reason.

This year I have been giving it more regular feeds of Seasol and Powerfeed - the leaves are absolutely normal, and it is loaded with fruit. So maybe yours has a mild mineral deficiency? The nights here in the hills in WA are quite cold ATM, though the days are mild.
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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
1st June 2019 7:58pm
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Original Post was last edited: 1st June 2019 8:01pm
Amanda says...
Are these both Imperial mandarins by any chance Julie and G/Yoda, out of interest?
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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
2nd June 2019 12:16pm
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
Emperor here.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
3rd June 2019 4:20pm
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Julie says...
Mine is, Amanda. Must try and remember to take a pic tomorrow.
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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
3rd June 2019 8:27pm
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Amanda says...
Hi again Julie! My Imperial mandy did the same up north too - and I also believe it's a nutritional problem (or maybe slight thrip damage of the new leaves?)
Over the years I have found that grafted mandarins have been the most pernickity out of all the citrus trees I have ever grown hey? I wonder if this is something do to with rootstock/scion issues, sometimes - especially with these new dwarfing rootstocks...
Anyway - I don't think it's cold, wet soil G/Yoda - as it was not cold and wet up north....and it's colder and wetter here and I don't get it.
If you are on sandy soils there - then you may need to fertilise little and often...?
Are you using a complete fertiliser? (ie does it have all the trace elements and micronutrients?)


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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
4th June 2019 10:58am
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
No Amanda I don't believe it contains all the necessary trace elements it's just a basic fertilizer. I haven't had the tree for very long. Also its potted if that helps.

Could you recommend a fertilizer? I would appreciate it.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
4th June 2019 1:54pm
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Amanda says...
I don't grow fruit trees in pots so might be better for Julie and/or folks that do, to recommend the right kind for this job?
(My citrus are in ground and require more specific feeding due to our bore water being a bit limey...but regardless - any fertiliser that is a 'Complete' fertiliser should have the mineral analysis on the back of the bag - listing S, Zn, Fe, Mn etc....)
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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
5th June 2019 6:40pm
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
Okay thanks Amanda I looked up the product analysis for my fertilizer and it looks like it does contain all the necessary elements. My tree seems pretty happy otherwise with new growth, blossoms and growing fruit so I'm not too concerned.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
7th June 2019 1:07pm
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David01 says...
Hi Gradmaster Yoda,

Your Mandarin leaves looks green and healthy but it may need more water during the hot days as if your Mandarin growth next to the aluminium fence generating more heat or cold. Extremely heat or cold may cause leaf curling. Mandarin needs citrus fertiliser during growth season and a bit extra Potassium when fruiting. Other trace elements should be available in ground unless you have sandy soil. Citrus fertiliser and potassium supply from Bunnings. Link below list a common diseases on citrus just in case needed. Cheers

https://lemoncitrustree.com/store/pest-disease
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David01
CRAIGIEBURN,3064,VIC
7th June 2019 2:14pm
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Original Post was last edited: 8th June 2019 12:08pm
Julie says...
I'm an organic grower, so as I said above, I feed with Seasol and Powerfeed roughly every two weeks, when I feed my other plants.

They have certainly responded to this, with nice green leaves and quite a lot of fruit for such a small tree.

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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
7th June 2019 6:07pm
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Amanda says...
Just a nore to beware if looking up product analysis on the Bunnings web site btw...their information is often wrong.
I got caught out with this one from Richgro and it had a big impact on my fruiting season....

The Bunnings web site says that trace elements are added - but when I queried this with Richgro directly, because of the problems I was having - they confirmed that there are no micro/trace elements in the "all purpose" products and that the Bunnings website is incorrect.
I see they still haven't corrected the error either, which is pretty poor.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/richgro-2-5kg-all-purpose-rose-and-citrus-fertiliser_p2961378
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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
9th June 2019 12:39pm
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
Thanks for that Amanda. That's unfortunate that Bunnings hasn't updated the error.

The product analysis I refer to is directly from the manufacturer so it should be accurate. I would also recommend to anyone that it what's in a product is important then you should try and get information from the manufacturer.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
11th June 2019 8:58pm
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Amanda says...
Agree G/Yoda. I just took it for granted that an "all purpose" fert would be a complete fert...otherwise it's not really "all" purpose is it..

In this case the Richgro website was not informative either - so I ended up having to email them directly Even the contact person there had to contact the lab for the information?!
So beware bags of fert's that don't specifically list microelements and/or say "trace elements" added perhaps.

This was the thread I started when I had this problem also....if you haven't seen it already?
It's quite a distinct curling isn't it...
I have never had it down here.

https://www.daleysfruit.com.au/forum/curly-mandarin-leaves/

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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
12th June 2019 1:08pm
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Original Post was last edited: 12th June 2019 8:05pm
jakfruit etiquette says...
The richgro is a 7-1-7-9 fertilizer on the label, thats NPK plus something, probably S from the other bits of the NPK, ie ammonium sulphate and potassium sulphate I would guess.
Thats the added trace on the website, as you say, not a complete trace spectrum, and not what you are expecting. Strictly not a trace, but a main minor fertilizer element.
You have to read labels carefully to make sure each of the trace are there, and also how the fertilizer is constructed. Iron sulphate, magnesium sulpate, zinc sulphate plus other sulphates will give a high S value.
Many fertilizers will have no Calcium at all, some will have NPK S Mg Zn Fe but not the rest.
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jakfruit etiquette
vic
12th June 2019 4:49pm
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Julie says...
Forgot to mention I start all plants off with blood and bone and rock minerals. As they grow I give liquid feeds. I top up individual minerals as needed,if I see signs of a deficiency.
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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
13th June 2019 7:23pm
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Amanda says...
yup, it's sulphur j/ettiquette :) But here in WA that product is 9-1-7-12 (pics from a bags I have here)

The NPK ratio's can vary a little over here, for the same products, because by our WA Environmental Protection Reg's (2010) our 'packaged' fert's must have a minimum N to P ratio.
This is because of our sands and their leaching/water pollution issues - also P fixation problems.

So our Dynamic Lifter, for eg, is made and bagged here in WA - and it's not the same product or ratio's as the Eastern states (and it's double the price here now..as it's made by Yates instead- not DL...grr...and hence why I have changed over to a local product instead - Multigrow Organic 2000 - for a good price/kilo)

The sulphur ratio's might also be a little higher also though?
Certainly many of us on the near/close-coastal sands have issues with akalinity as well, especially as our bore water may be becoming more alkaline over the years - and also saline in many areas now.
So sulphur is usually needed in higher quantities as well.

I avoid any fert's with a calcium % above 5% ...and especially those where the calcium is in the form of lime (carbonate form) ...because I get enough of that from our bore water - and I need to avoid more carbonates like the plague. Nasty stuff for plants.

I don't want to add even more levels of calcium because as much as it is needed in decent amounts - you can have too much of a good thing too, can't you.
3% in a fert works ok for me here, in my situation - but as calcium in the sulphate form (ie: gypsum)
Potassium in the sulphate form - not muriate...etc etc.

We only need to look at the exchange affinity/lyotropic series to see that calcium-in-excess could knock off the lesser cations, that are needed, on the soil - like Mg, Zn and Mn..if they are in short supply.

I have enough calcium in my system from both the irrigation water and the type of sand we are on here (Spearwood sands) - so don't need much in my fert's - just need to keep it all balanced.

This is my understanding of it all now - after a good 10+ years of homework and experimenting etc...and a lot of errors and deaths in the 'family' too...lol...
Any advice and/or experience I pass on is only for sandy soils +/- alkalinity though...and/or perhaps with the climates I have actually grown/gardened in.
I have limited clay experience, for eg, and even less with acidic soils - so I usually avoid remarking on those situations.

You are absolutely right tho - if the bag doesn't mention cobalt, for eg, then there will be no cobalt added...especially given the price of cobalt..!?

I think sometimes that it suits the fertiliser companies to simply omit what is *not included* .. ? ;-)

I have really changed the way I think and use fert's over the years tho....
I used to be totally organic-derived slow release....but I just found it so hard to find a slow release organic source of higher nitrogen levels - for the heavy feeders, in our sands.

One I have found and down here has been pure dried blood meal (No hoof, horn or bone - which add more calcium)

It's a bugger to use tho....so fine and fly-away and stinky...plus seems to aggravate water repellency.
I want to try feather meal next.






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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
13th June 2019 11:38pm
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Amanda says...
btw: the bag claims "specially formulated to promote high quality and yield"...??
How do they define high quality and yield? Of what? grass? weeds? citrus?
Anyone who grows fruit trees must surely disagree with that 9:1:7:12 but NO trace elements ratio?
I bought this fert - but I added stuff to it...for my purposes...
But how many everyday-type home growers buy it - thinking that it's going to be what they need for their roses - thru to their lawn?




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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
14th June 2019 12:06am
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
I had a look at the pictures on that thread and I'm guessing it's a different problem. Unless of course my problem gets worse (which it hasn't yet and seems to have stopped) my leaves are curling not much past 90 degrees down.

Recently treated my tree (a couple of days ago) for citrus leaf miner (also took care of aphids it seems). Could the pests have caused leaf curl like this? The miners weren't attacking the leaves that are curling down just the flush.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
14th June 2019 10:17am
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Amanda says...
Julie what's your water like up in the hills, out of interest - are you using tap or borewater? Do you get any scale build-up at all?
I have about 300 fruit trees/vines etc now - and another several hundred of other things - so I have had to incorporate some synthetic fert's due to the costs involved - and also the effort of getting them all out there.
It can take me 1-2days to do a full fertilising run, over the 2acres, if I am also doing the "tweaks" like sulphur, iron sulphate, extra blood meal etc..
(as we know - the bananas need different ratios to the macadamias etc etc...) then there is all the different seasonal timing of the applications....

Someone really needs to make an APP...!? (and add all the different pruning times and types too...)
hehe.

So this was the same mandarin that you were talking about all those years ago hey?
I suspect mine was minor/or early thrip damage, in hindsight....now that I have seen how very tiny they can be and thus so easily overlooked?

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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
14th June 2019 12:44pm
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jakfruit etiquette says...
The theory of specially formulated to promote high quality and yield, that would mean a N level to promote growth and flower/fruit set, without an excess high N to give excessive leafy growth or N burn problems.
The K level of 7 would help with fruit quality, disease resistance.
Possibly the Sulphur would help there also. The P of 1% is there to give supply without excessive response. I'm not reccomending this fertilizer, just interpreting what it says. If you doubled the NPK to 18 2 14, you would get an explosion of green growth, and probably fungus disease and insect problems on foliage and fruit.
Fertilizers dont only feed the plants they are applied to, they also stimulate the soil microbes, and breakdown organic matter in the soil. This can liberate other trace elements.
Weeds can also pull nutrients into this process. I wonder how they change the formula in WA from 9179 to 91712 without altering the 917 ? Maybe just add plain S ?

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jakfruit etiquette
vic
15th June 2019 1:20pm
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Gradmaster Yoda says...
Also if people are still checking this, thread should I be using less fertilizer now that its winter? Would the tree still be able to properly absorb the nitrogen when it's this cold. Should I still be using fruit, flower and citrus powerfeed every two weeks? I haven't fertilized in a month or two due to cold weather. Cheers.
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Gradmaster Yoda
Aldinga
18th June 2019 10:39am
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Julie says...
Just scheme water amanda, no bore. And yes, it's the same mandarin, the one in 'Trees in Bags" from many years ago.

G/master Yoda, in general I fertilise trees in ground twice a year, and trees in pots/bags little and often.
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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
20th June 2019 10:17pm
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Original Post was last edited: 20th June 2019 10:20pm
Julie says...
The mandarin is the only plant I have left in a Bonsai bag. I have never rebagged it, and it's about 20 years old now.

I recommend these bags for anyone who has little space. They are supposed to be put in the ground, but mine sits on a small cement slab. Don't know if Daleys still sells them.
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Julie
ROLEYSTONE,6111,WA
21st June 2019 7:28pm
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Amanda says...
Julie - I am amazed the bonsia bag has lasted 20yrs!? Can you post a pic of it please? That's remarkable durability, especially these days...
And it's even more interesting that you have never re-bagged it...I wonder what the root system looks like in there..
It's nice to see you are still here on Daleys btw :) ...and still spreading your rough Seville seeds far and wide..



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Amanda
LESCHENAULT,6233,WA
22nd June 2019 9:47pm
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Julie says...
Will try and remember to take a pic when we next have a dry day - lots of rain coming up!
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Julie
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25th June 2019 6:21pm
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