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polyembryonic mango seeds

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buckwild starts with ...
Right it has been talked about before but it honestly is the most hardest answer to find on the net. With polyembryonic mango seeds (honey gold, kp, r2e2, which are the ones I have sown), what is the true to type/clone! Biggest most vigorous shoot or the smaller seedlings? Alot of people say the smallest are true to type and alot of people say the biggest seedlings are true to type, some people say if there is more than two, that it is the two that look most similar and the odd one out is not true to type.
A company that grows mangos asked their experts and they said that the most vigorous seedling is a true to type, but they also said there is no guarantee on this. Now anyone out there looking at my photos have an idea (from experience/knowledge about this.
Cheers
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buckwild
buck
15th January 2017 1:19pm
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buckwild says...
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buckwild
buck
15th January 2017 1:26pm
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Original Post was last edited: 15th January 2017 3:07pm
buckwild says...
Oh and here is one that looks like two have grown together. Right from when it sprouted it was growing like this so two never joined unless they joined as they came out of the seed and grew like a screw. There are two shoots on this one so I will definitely keep this one...gotta be lucky that one lol
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buckwild
buck
15th January 2017 1:33pm
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Markmelb says...
The Ugly one is the dud - if it looks nice and mango like - just keep growing it.

I have a Keitt mono that looks way better than my grafted keitt - think I will grow it on. see pic of it - larger plant in middle with great leaves - has since done another flush.see pic 2 -- Pic 3 is a grafted Keitt with weird leaves to compare (nowhere near as nice) Pic 4 is a group of grafted CVs flushing with nice leaf shape - Alphonso Left and Glenn Right - Nam Doc Mai behind

Poly seedlings can be easily divided like a puzzle.
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Markmelb
MOUNT WAVERLEY,3149,VIC
15th January 2017 9:59pm
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Original Post was last edited: 16th January 2017 3:54pm
allybanana says...
I read a research paper, cannot remember the reference, but I recall when they did genetic testing on all the seedlings from lots of poly-embryonic mango seeds. The cross fertilied seedling was not consistently biggest or smallest.
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allybanana
EDEN, NSW
20th January 2017 9:25pm
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jakfruit etiquette says...
The poltembryonic mango seed is divided into segments( the embtyos ). These are not all the same size, and the biggest embryo often grows away faster, so the biggest embryo often produces the biggest seedling, and this is usually one of the polyembryonics. If the non clonal was a more vigotous plant, it would eventualy outgrow the polys, and appear as the most vigotous.
It can be hard with one seed to work it out, but if you grew a lot of seed from the one variety, it would be easier to see which are identical, and which are off types.
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jakfruit etiquette
vic
21st January 2017 11:29am
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buckwild says...
Thanks for reply guys. Markmelb it is hard to choose the ugly one when the little ones are close or even in size.
Allybanana yes I believe I read that report (if it was in expert language and difficult to read with charts), but it was not kp, r2e2 or honeygold poly's that they did the study on. It probably may not matter and all polyembryonic mango seeds may be the same, I'm not sure.
Below in the first picture there are 4 mangos's, three of which are around the same size, but one is thriving, so I'm stuck with that as I want true to type but don't like the idea of throwing away big one (odd one out) unless an expert says to lol. In the second pic, there are three but two are thriving and one not so much (so I will discard the little one. And the third pic there are three also, and I though of keeping the largest?
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buckwild
buck
23rd January 2017 2:13pm
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buckwild says...
Hmmm anyone want to send out a dna kit to a poor cripple like myself so I can stop doing my head in and figure this out hahaha ;)

Markmelb, impressive trees too, nice and healthy! Why are they in pots though? Are you renting a house, or do you sell them or something
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buckwild
buck
23rd January 2017 2:15pm
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Original Post was last edited: 23rd January 2017 2:15pm
Markmelb says...
Only have a Palmer in the ground and has some fruit on it and is hardy to about 2c - The rest in pots to see how vigorous and hardy they are after a couple years in different spots. Also in pots to bring in over winter as mangos dont need a huge pot for a small crop. Nam Doc and Keitt not hardy except seedling is. You have to experiment - and ive run out of room for ground plantings.
I think I was lucky with that really nice Keitt seedling.

First pic is Palmer with some set fruit.
Heres a pic of an ugly seedling - A Chokodan Mono 2nd pic - so you know what I mean about ugly duckling - LOL
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Markmelb
MOUNT WAVERLEY,3149,VIC
23rd January 2017 3:36pm
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Original Post was last edited: 23rd January 2017 3:38pm
allybanana says...
Hey Buckwild maybe more than one is cross pollinated better throw out all the big ones just to make sure LOL.
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allybanana
EDEN, NSW
23rd January 2017 6:11pm
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Original Post was last edited: 23rd January 2017 6:18pm
allybanana says...
Hi Jakfruit

I am curious on your reason for saying that the cross pollinated plant will grow better than the clonal ones in the long run. The commercial cultivars have been chosen partly because of their health and disease resistance and when growing from seed none of them are grafted they are all seedlings on there own roots.
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allybanana
EDEN, NSW
23rd January 2017 6:18pm
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Original Post was last edited: 23rd January 2017 6:18pm
brad16 says...
Do you seriously want a DNA kit?

Bioline in Sydney: (10 preps = $60) http://www.bioline.com/au/isolate-ii-plant-dna-kit.html

Vigour is a good indicator, but whether it's more or less vigour will be unknown unless you get at least 3 seedlings from the seed (or you know the variety EXTREMELY well).There will be one genetically different seedling to the rest (which will be all genetically the same). So with a minimum of 3 seedlings you know at least 2 will be the same (and the ones you want). The more you have with the same growth habit, and the more difference you can see in just one, the more confident you can be in assuming that it is the 'not-true-to-type'.

Will the different DNA make the 'not-true-to-type':
* a faster grower?
* a slower grower?
* an early bloomer?
* a late bloomer?
* have thin, glossy leaves?
* have broad, dull leaves?
* grow juicier fruit?
* grow sweeter fruit?
* grow scones and jam?

Fact is, nobody knows. All we know is one will have some differences (what ever they will be). And those differences may not even be visually apparent, especially in seedlings that haven't even flowered or set fruit yet.

Assuming that all yours germinated at the same time, then some pots have one that seems distinctively 'different' to 'assume' it to be the odd one out. Others are probably too close to say 'SHOOT IT!'.

Vigour of growth and health of offspring is not like 'inbreeding' (sexual reproduction within a limited gene pool), where inbreeding is commonly thought to lead to health problems. I think there is a tendency to draw similarities and assume the sexually fertilised one to be stronger and more vigourous because it's not 'inbred'. None of them are 'inbred'.

btw. Honey Gold is a registered cultivar with the sole Australian trading license to Piata Farms and the reason you can't buy grafted plants is because they don't want you growing them. If you grew them and sold them saying they are 'Honey Gold', then expect a visit and a court order. They want their $$ for their brand.
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brad16
GOROKAN,2263,NSW
24th January 2017 3:46am
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Markmelb says...
You know what I really hate is growers calling their mangos TPP1 - TPP2 - TPP4 etc etc TPP1 looks like Artulfo - darn well call it that. Another is Dragons Tooth from Mareeba Mangos - nice mango but what is this one??? Ha - Such a joke and they are Monos anyway. You dont see this naming rubbish in USA.

FYI as ive said a friends Honey Gold flowered at 2 or 3 years old but it fell off. HG is a Poly and you could call your seedling anything you want and sell it as is not from original genetic material. Just as Bowens arnt a pur KP.
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Markmelb
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24th January 2017 8:50am
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buckwild says...
Brad16 cheers for the reply and your help.
I am on disability pension so whilst $60 is not much money to most, it is alot to me, so I will more than likely not get a dna test unfortunately.

I understand it is the most common between them, it is hard when all 3 are different lol. Its also hard to throw away the biggest that is thriving. Obviously I am asking hoping someone out there who grows honey gold from seed knows alot more than I do about polyembryonic seeds and has a good success rate from experience. Always good to hear everyone's opinions, especially those in the know.

I have spoken to piata farms before I wrote this post/forum. I asked their advice on how to tell which is true to type for their honeygold mango variety. They were very pleasant and helpful, with their experts saying the largest is more than likely true to type, but there is no guarantee. We emailed back and forth quite a bit. I am growing these for myself only but only want to grow true to type as the honeygold are amazingly beautiful fruit. I have asked Bowen frutilicious (or whatever they are called) who grows kp from seedling but they must not have wanted to help as they never got back to me. Obviously because they want to sell their plants, not have people grow their own from seed.
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buckwild
buck
24th January 2017 12:37pm
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Original Post was last edited: 24th January 2017 1:50pm
jakfruit etiquette says...
Hi Allybanana,
I'm not meaning in all cases, just that its possible in a few cases ie
If the non clonal was a more vigorous plant, it would eventualy outgrow the polys, and appear as the most vigorous.
I think brad 16 has covered your question also ie "e;Will the different DNA make the 'not-true-to-type "e; etc
People are still breeding (cross pollinating) Mango vars to get better ones, and all the existing types are derived from previous breeding or chance crossed seedlings.
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jakfruit etiquette
vic
24th January 2017 10:25pm
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allybanana says...
Hi Jackfruit, Brad16 certainly covered it and then a good layer of mulch on top of that, thanks Brad 16. I am hoping these polyembronic seedlings grow a bigger more vigorous tree being seedlings, as in cooler climates like Eden were I am the mangoes are slow growers, also I have found the grafted ones flower so heavily when tiny that they are to exausted to grow, hopefully the seedling will hold of on the flowers for longer (but not to long(:
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allybanana
EDEN, NSW
27th January 2017 5:21am
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Rauf says...
Hello. I live in Azerbaijan, I am a doctor and at the same time I take a great interest in gardening. For several months now I have been trying in vain to acquire mango seeds KP, R2E2 and Honey Gold, but it does not work out. Could you help me? I ask you to send me 1 or 2 mango seeds of these varieties. I will be very grateful to you and if you need it you will get a consultation of a sports doctor -)))
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Rauf
Zaq1xsw2
22nd September 2018 7:56am
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Mango Mike says...
Rauf.... Later in the season I will be able to send a couple of KP & R2E2 seeds for you....Will need your address.... Honey Gold whilst being Poly has Plant Breeders Rights on it so I can't supply those seeds but for the record Honey Gold came from a selection of KP seedlings from Fritzroy Nursery in Rockhampton....... Mike
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
24th September 2018 8:31am
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Rauf says...
Thanks Mike. I would be very grateful if you do this.
Here is my address - Azerbaijan, Baku, Shafayet Mekhtiyev Street, 89, postcode 1141

One question - is there no way to solve it with Honey Gold? his seed seems to be polyembryonic too, isn’t it? Is it possible to germinate the seed from the fruit from the store? In my opinion, the ban applies only for commercial use, and not for personal use. I really want him, he is described as the most delicious mango you have -))) Thank you
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Rauf
Baku
3rd October 2018 10:48am
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Mango Mike says...
Rauf.... If the seeds are store brought they will most probably been placed in cold storage & germination is affected.. Therefore honey Gold would be a waste of time..... Will send some R2E2 & KP seeds later on in the season from local trees..... Honey Gold is said to be the best by their PBR holder not the OZ general public...... Mike
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
4th October 2018 8:08pm
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Mike Tr says...
Seeds can handle down to at least 4c which is cooler that picked mangoes are stored at.Honey gold is alright and no one planting a seed for private use of PBR varieties has ever been prosecuted in this country. Maybe get something like sam ru du or maha Chinook from the markets as they taste better than any in the KP clan.
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Mike Tr
Cairns
5th October 2018 8:45am
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike...Understood...I’ll be waiting-)))Thank you anyway
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Rauf
Baku
6th October 2018 7:42am
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike...I ask you, because you are well versed in the subject. Have you heard about Dudhiya Malda, Kohitur and Sweet Elena mango varieties? Some claim, that they are the best. What do you think about this?

Sweet Elena is recorded in Guiness Book of World Records as the sweetest mango in the world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FiYVh1Fe2tc
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Rauf
Baku
17th October 2018 12:04pm
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Mango Mike says...
Sorry... Haven't got those 3 varieties... Where do they come from ??? Mike
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
19th October 2018 1:00pm
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike...If you have time, read the information from links below ( some information about these varieties )

http://www.mixph.com/sweet-elena-mango-the-sweetest-mango-variety/


https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/west-bengal-government-seeks-gi-tag-for-kohitur-mango-1872342

https://www.telegraphindia.com/culture/food/jewel-in-the-mouth/cid/1309780


https://www.huffingtonpost.in/sonali-prasad/post_9603_b_7559298.html?guccounter=1
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Rauf
Baku
23rd October 2018 1:45am
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike...Did you look at the links? What is your opinion?
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Rauf
Baku
30th October 2018 5:48am
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Mango Mike says...
Rauf.... You should be able to get both the Sweet Elena & Dudhiya Malda...but the Kohitur will be hard to get....Most Indian mangoes are Mono so you would need to get scionwood..Carabao are Poly so will be true to type or near true to type...The OZ gene pool has 7 different Carabao varieties but not Sweet Elena..I might try & see if I can get one.... Thanks Mike
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
31st October 2018 12:41am
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike...Of course, I realize that it is unrealistic for me to purchase these varieties (although of course I would like to -)). The distance is too great, the scionwoods will not reach, I would have to go myself to get them.-)) It just seemed to me that the information was interesting and, like a person who are conversant with this topic, wanted to know your opinion. Do you agree that they are really so good? Maybe you would like to acquire them?-))
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Rauf
Baku
2nd November 2018 4:37am
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Mango Mike says...
Rauf.... We can't get scionwood into OZ. So I would expect that the Indian varieties are Mono & seeds would then not be true to type.... As I said Carabao are Poly & with Sweet Elena being from this family I would think that it would be Poly & seeds would be true to type... That is the mango I would like to get hold of.....
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
2nd November 2018 11:57pm
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Rauf says...
Hi Mike ... do you remember you wrote that you could send me mango seeds? Just wanted to ask, have you changed your mind yet? -) Is there a season for mangoes?
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Rauf
Baku
16th November 2018 8:09am
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Mango Mike says...
Rauf.... No haven't changed my mind... We get our mango's in January.... I was waiting to get some tree ripened seeds for you rather than store purchased that have been in cold storage.....
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Mango Mike
KARRABIN,4306,QLD
17th November 2018 3:43pm
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Rauf says...
Thank you Mike .... glad to hear it-)) I look forward to waiting-) And just in case I’ll writie you an email address - arauf107@mail.ru
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Rauf
Baku
22nd November 2018 7:40am
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