sodium bentonite (forum)

Sundari333 starts with ...
How many handyfuls of granules per sq. metre for a very sandy soil, PLEASE.

Time: 20th April 2010 11:41am

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About the Author Sundari333
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Charles cant spell says...
Well bentonite alone wont help sandy soils much, but assuming you are adding organic material as well (sheep manure, coco fiber, dug in tree mulch, compost) then I think 2 handfuls a meter dug in fork/spade depth then watered should be fine to start with. You can add more later in liq form if required. You need to dig it in else it will sit on the surface and stick to everything when its wet.

If you cant dig it in due to already existing beds or garden you can "(stolen from a web site) It you take a cup of bentonite, mix it with several cups of water and leave it to soak overnight you will end up with a paste with the consistency of smooth peanut butter. If you then add several cups more water, mix it with the bentonite paste and leave it to soak overnight again you will end up with a paste with the consistency of yoghurt." http://www.gregsindigenouslandscapes.com.au/Gardening%20Tips%20&%20Tricks.htm

Mix more liquid and then you can watering can it onto your garden or beds, the fine clay particles will percolate through your sand and add water retention and nutrient retention.

Time: 20th April 2010 12:58pm

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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amanda says...
What is this stuff? what does the sodium part do to your soil? ..just curious...

Time: 20th April 2010 11:10pm

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About the Author amanda19
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Itdepends says...
It's a clay- the sodium part just means that it's a sodium (as opposed to potassium) clay. The sodium is bound up though- it's a way of improving soil moisture retention and wettting.

Time: 21st April 2010 2:14pm

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Julie says...
amanda, there was something about this on a thread ages ago. I suggested kitty litter as a cheap way to buy bentonite.

Remember now?

Time: 21st April 2010 7:47pm

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About the Author Julie
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Charles cant spell says...
lol Rosemary kitty litter flavored....I did that, never again, go to a cattle feed company they can source it in bulk, or a dam building company will know of a source as its used to seal dams, ponds if the natural soil doesn't have enough clay.

Time: 22nd April 2010 12:46pm

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Julie says...
Charles, you said 'never again'. What happened? I suggested the Kitty litter for anyone needing a fairly small amount for a suburban back yard. I guess it would be cheaper in bulk, but (1) not everyone needs a large amount, and (2) it can be hard to source for city dwellers.

Time: 22nd April 2010 8:00pm

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Charles cant spell says...
my garden smelt of artificial lavender for weeks !!!!!!! Other than that it works fine and yes City Farmers has 5kg bags for $10 or something so it is a good cheap couple of raised beds volume.

Time: 22nd April 2010 8:44pm

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Eric says...
Hi - thought it may be worth sharing that I've been sourcing bentonite from fertiliser companies and from Elders - they generally have 25kg bags for about $10. If you have them near you it may be worth a look..

For those that like a more scientific approach to things -
http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ag125e/AG125E28.htm

I'm not convinced on the amounts they're adding (many kg per square m), but they are talking about very sandy leaching soil so it may be true...




Time: 13th May 2010 9:18am

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About the Author Eric3
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Charles cant spell says...
Well Perth coast sand is often yellow or white sand. So lets say you want 20% sand to keep you solid loose etc. We need to add 80% other stuff to ouch sand base. I wouldn't be surprised if they are adding kg's, but also kg of compost, and kgs of leaf litter/coco fibre etc.

So simulating loam, Loam soils are typically comprised of approximately 25 - 50% sand, 30 - 50% silt and 10 - 30% clay by volume. Lets go mid range, 35% sand, 20% clay, 45%silt (organic goodies). If your 1 m of garden bed 33cm deep (1m3 = 1200kg) weighs 400kg, you would need 80ish kg of clay.

While that is a rough effort you get the idea. Making loam out of Perth soil/sand is immense.

Hence why I have moved to wicking beds, where moisture and nutrient holding is far less of a requirement.

Time: 13th May 2010 3:03pm

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Original Post was last edited: 13th May 2010 3:05pm

About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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amanda says...
I am curious about the effect of putting (possibly) all that sodium in the soil? How do the plants react to this stuff?
It wouldn't remain bound to the bentonite indefinitely, surely?



Time: 13th May 2010 4:15pm

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About the Author amanda19
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Brad says...
Source in Perth - 10kg bags for $15
http://www.sustainableoutdoors.com.au/bentonite-clay/

Time: 10th January 2011 11:52pm

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About the Author Brad2
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Charles cant spell says...
Sounds cheap Westfeeds also do a cheap bag for cattle food calcium supplement. I dont recall the price though similar I think.

Time: 11th January 2011 3:08am

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Jimmy says...
BioJohn Belmont $15 for 25Kg.

It's called TrueFeed.

Mix it in before it gets wet otherwise it tends to clump and not be incorprated very well even with my super dooper rotary hoe.

Time: 11th January 2011 3:40pm

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Original Post was last edited: 11th January 2011 3:46pm

About the Author Jimmy
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Charles cant spell says...
Cheers for that Jimmy. Looks like we are switching out the plastic lining in the wicking beds to bentonite layer base now so we do need a cheap bulk source for Permablitz jobs and other work.

Time: 12th January 2011 1:54am

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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amanda says...
Guys - are u sure the sodium component is ok here?
Natural clay is potassium based - it's quite different.

Time: 13th January 2011 1:08am

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About the Author amanda19
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Brad says...
the sodium would definitely be bound up. i don't know exactly what they sell in small bags, but there are also other bentonites (e.g. calcium)- they're not all sodium based. it may depend where it was mined / processed.

bentonite is used extensively in many industries. Charles - that idea makes a lot of sense. Its used to line farm ponds.

and to nitpick - I do not believe that most natural clays are potassium based (in fact I don't even think potassium is significant). what makes you think that?

Time: 13th January 2011 2:06pm

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Original Post was last edited: 13th January 2011 2:16pm

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Charles cant spell says...
I cant categorically say its safe and wont cause an issue but I would be very supprised, I dont think the Sodium is an issue its just part of the name. See this page Brad found (supplier) you can look at the chemical composition of both grades. http://www.bentoniteproductswa.com.au/html/product.html.
I am guessing the Saponite percentage is the bound up "clay" (Chemically it is hydrated sodium calcium aluminium magnesium silicate hydroxide (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2

Time: 13th January 2011 2:50pm

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Original Post was last edited: 13th January 2011 2:56pm

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Charles cant spell says...
Either-way its certainly better for the enviro and less toxic than builder plastic, yum.... the only disadvantage over builders plastic I see is Root invasion from surrounding trees. I.e. Plastic is a physical barrier but clay is just to stop the water and nutrients leaching out the bottom.

Time: 13th January 2011 2:52pm

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amanda says...
What u are up to sounds great CCS. I am very interested in wicking beds for our next property (if we ever get out of here!!)
Um - dunno Brad - just information that I have gleaned along the way - Kevin Handreck talks about clay and potassium etc - in his book Gardening Down Under (CSIRO) He states that it is a great long term source of potassium for sandy soils - but I am no expert, for sure.

PS - just went off to find some ref's - but they are all very hardcore! try googling potassium bentonite or potassium in clay etc...

One thing I did note was that Na-Bentonite swells quite a bit - so u may want to take this into account in your designs CCS?

Time: 13th January 2011 9:11pm

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About the Author amanda19
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Rhys says...
I think the sodium in the clay shouldn't cause "salinity" problems if that is what you're concerned about Amanda...i remember reading something somewhere once about this issue that seemed to make sense at the time so i was happy to accept it, but i didn't bother committing it to memory sorry...i'll see if i can find the reference again.
For people with clay soil like me, the sodium does however cause other problems, but not really a "salinity" issue. Its more to do with the physical properties/solubility/stability of the clay when sodium is the cation, and the main reason gypsum is added to clay soil is to try and replace the sodium ions with calcium ions...i think the 2+ charge on calcium is better than the 1+ charge on sodium. And again, i seem to remember reading that even in this situation, the release of sodium by the calcium shouldn't cause salinity issues.
Happy to be proved wrong by someone that knows more on this than i do


Time: 13th January 2011 10:50pm

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Charles cant spell says...
Cheers amanda thats the main design principle. That is we line the sand hole or brick/paved base with a thick coat of bentonite, you hydrate it so that its workable but not slop, so work you clay into edges etc and create your "liner". Now you can build your wicking bed on top. If it seems to be leaking still you can then fill it with bentonite/water solution and let the leak point gradually close with bentonite particles as the water passes through. Given the bed base will be wet when it needs to seal (duh :)) it might even work :)

Time: 13th January 2011 11:50pm

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Brad says...
they use exactly the same principle in building structure root barriers - google should explain further.

Time: 14th January 2011 12:46am

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amanda says...
Very clever! Keep us in the loop about your progress CCS?!

Time: 14th January 2011 1:34am

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Keith says...
I recently went to a Bunnings [Bibra Lake Garden Club meeting. A speaker guy was saying Bentonite would help retain water in our sandy soils . I have found that Mirco;s in Henderson have the product at a reasonable price .It was also suggested I use Zealite and Bentonite together.If this stuff is so good how come our water supply dept are not encouraging all new gardens in the Perth sandy basin to mix this in at building new gardens . I will contact them to find out if they have done any trials. Also the Ag dept.will post when I get some answers ,procco

Time: 2nd September 2011 5:23pm

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snottiegobble says...
Hi Keith, for some strange reason I suspect that Coles has the market sewn up for its use as Kitty litter. I just dont understand why bentonite has not been more widely publicised as a soil conditioner & even as an additive in potting mixes. I am adding it to all my mixes & garden beds!

Time: 2nd September 2011 7:45pm

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Jimmy says...
The water corp does recomend bentonite, look in any of the how to guides from Josh Byrne, its in there.

Time: 5th September 2011 11:21am

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