Selling our growing land? (forum)

amanda starts with ...
Ok..I admit that I am an activist of sorts..and I am disturbed by this.
But - I am also interested in peoples reactions to this? Not to start an argument or anything...just wondering how we all feel about any other country being able to come in any buy up our farm land..and for what reason?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/chinese-swoop-on-16-dairy-farms-in-new-zealand-6295945.html

Oh...and if u don't think it will happen in Aust..it's already happening :(eg: the Margaret river cheese company has just been purchased by China too..just one more example)

Time: 5th February 2012 1:48am

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jakfruit etiquette says...
Tax schemes and MIS managed investment schemes by Australians have been buying up rural land,distorting and wrecking the rural economy, then when they collapse without ever producing anything,leaving a big hole in rural jobs( all by Australians)Thats more damaging than foreign companies buying and running farms productivly.

Time: 5th February 2012 7:48am

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glennis says...
If i said the british were buying up aussie food industries you wouldnt care . I am against globalisation but i am sure its not just the chinese .

Time: 5th February 2012 9:10am

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MaryT says...
At least they are paying for it, Amanda.

Time: 5th February 2012 11:55am

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MaryT says...
glennis; at least the British are paying for it this time.

Time: 5th February 2012 11:56am

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amanda says...
The fact is that if buy the resource - you control the resource.

I don't care who it is - british or chinese and it's bit different to foreign ownership of luxury waterside properties or such? I am just wondering if it is the right thing to do.

I guess time will tell how this pans out. I just thought it was worth a mention/discussion - not to imply anything racist or to incite a riot.

This is also affecting our mining industries...buy the iron ore resource...u control it - and it's price..

(and..if u have just 10% of 1 billion people with a growing demand for cheese/dairy...that's 100 million people..?
How can our small populations compete with this kind of demand into the future? India's new middle class is yet to come on-line here..another 100 million?
There could be very intersting times ahead of us I am thinking..that's all :)

Time: 5th February 2012 12:34pm

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amanda says...
And then the follow on (in my mind anyway) is....can the planet actually sustain this?

Our western lifestyle is rapacious and already putting a huge strain on the planet....I don't believe it's sustainable even at it's current level...what happens when you add even more people to the equation, who (understandably) want the same things..?

How is the planet going to cope? EG: Can we even produce enough dairy to meet this demand? When demand goes up - prices go up.

I can't be the only person to see that the cost of a kilo of cheese has trebled in recent years..?





Time: 5th February 2012 1:07pm

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Jason says...
I don't think foreign ownership should be allowed to happen but I'm sure the government realise that if they don't allow it or at some point decide to take it back. Well China in the end will have the means and will to just take it anyway so I guess they figure you might as well get some money for it rather than it being for free. The real problem with Australia is that we sell all our minerals for other countries to develop infrastructure and at the same time we are devaluing the country as a tourist destination. We are also not developing out own infrastructure, I can see that in the not so distant future we will be without resources, without any land worth seeing and without any infrastructure. Most other countries are either not that stupid or have been in the past and have learnt from the mistake

Time: 5th February 2012 1:17pm

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john says...
China is different- when a Chinese enterprise buys land it is either overtly backed by the Chinese Govt. ,say a sovereign wealth fund, or covertly when the figurehead board is stacked with Red Army officers and off spring of high government officials. Why does it matter? Well it does because if you have a dispute with such a firm they have the weight of the Chinese Govt. behind them. You are liable to face diplomatic pressure at the highest level and run the risk of boycotts- witness the denial of rare earths to Japan. If you think that U.S. hegemony was bad wait til use see how ugly the Chinese can be.

Time: 5th February 2012 1:33pm

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amanda says...
Gee - that's a bit foreboding but interesting john....This may have happened with the recent major price hike in the iron ore? Cupla years back now.

There was a great deal of tension over that and threats too - to go elsewhere. Now there is a concerted move to buy major shares in all the iron ore interests here in WA.

Hadn't thought about it like that. Lucky for us the system is different in India? We could really be the meat between the sandwich! :-O

Time: 5th February 2012 1:46pm

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Gus says...
Would anyone be concerened with Australians purchasing land in another country? Do we feel that we are more ethical than most other races or people?

Time: 5th February 2012 1:59pm

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amanda says...
I don't know that that was/is the issue Gus? (not for me anyway) I guess some will turn this into a race issue :( but it's really a political issue I thought?

And - we don't have a billion people to feed either? We haven't abused our land and poisoned it with heavy metals and industrial pollution at the expense of all else? (certainly not on the scale that China has?)

It's also curious that much of our food now comes from China...and yet they are buying farming land o/seas...I just don't get it? Maybe I am missing a piece of this puzzle.

I am very curious about what this is all about, myself?

Time: 5th February 2012 2:51pm

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amanda says...
Here are a cupla links I just quickly googled..they are quite interesting?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/land-rush/story-fn59niix-1226085165144

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/selling-the-farm-part-1/

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/concern-as-foreign-buyers-secure-agricultural-land-20110819-1j2it.html

There's no point in burying our heads in the sand here...it's perhaps naive to think that this can't/won't happen here. Aust is a primary resource country - and very attractive and stable.

I care about the next generations and hope that we are doing the right thing here?

(ps - the 2nd link (ABC one) is very good reading on the issue.....well presented without the fear mongering associated with this kind of emotive topic..)

Time: 5th February 2012 3:00pm

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amanda says...
And john has hit the nail on the head here: (it's not a race issue at all...this might explain things better:)

Water rights
Of particular concern to Senator Heffernan is that under current FIRB regulations foreign companies, sometimes with the backing of sovereign wealth funds, are able to buy the permanent water licences associated with agricultural properties.

"At the present time there's no differentiation between private investment and sovereign investment

Time: 5th February 2012 3:21pm

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Gus says...
I can't say I understand a lot of this topic either, and I am not convinced by anyone who has strong opinions in any direction.
I am sure that a lot of peoples concern over inernational investment in Australia is based on some of the dubious activities of some of those countries.
Do any of you guys have an opinion on how Australia fares in terms of its environmental controls? We have a pretty small nation without the overwhelming food needs that a place like China requires, so I wonder if it is fare to compare? Are we an environmentally friedly nation that leads the world, or should we be listening, learning and inviting international investment? (Not a loaded question, I honestly don't know)
Its hard to objectively scrutinize a country when you are feeding on its media every day and I wonder what sort of opinions farmers or miners from around the globe would hold of us.
From what little I know, a couple of Cuban farmers wouldn't go astray here.

Time: 5th February 2012 3:28pm

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amanda says...
Agreed Gus! :) It's a huge and complex topic and I don't pretend to have any better knowledge myself :) Just think it's good to talk about it tho, and I have lots of questions!

EG: One thing mentioned in that book "The Coming Famine" is that Aust grows enough food to feed around 60 million people, annually.

We all know that there can be many factors that adversly affect this...take last years floods..

But - if we have to double our output, in the near future (as estimated) to feed the growing world...then how are we going to do this?

More GM crops maybe?
There are many angles to this problem? Like, who will then decide who is going to get fed in the world and who isn't? The decision may not be ours/Aust's to make anymore?
Can we afford the "wait and see" approach? Maybe, maybe not..

So many questions and so few answers :-(

Time: 5th February 2012 3:55pm

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Gus says...
About six years ago there was a massive debate in Aust about whaling, and most Australians were a littled peed off with the Japanese Govt.
I went and visited some friends in Japan right at the height of these feuds and was kind of releived that I didn't walk into a storm of anti Australianism.
On the contrary, most of the people I met over there new little of the conflict. Very few had even tried eating whale meat, and not one person I met actually liked the taste.
You should have seen their faces when I told them how much I like a nice peice of roo. They were kind of horrified.
I know I am ignoring some very important ecolgical factors, but I guess it just made me wonder about everything I "knew".
This is probably why I am not a politician. I just can't stop fence sitting!

Time: 5th February 2012 4:31pm

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john says...
Mike, McCarthyism was a belief that there was a Communist conspiracy in the highest reaches of the US Government. My objection to Chinese behaviour is not based on their political system as such but their totalitarian inclination. As for the "rare earths", Japanese patrols intercepted Chinese vessels poaching in Jap. waters . The Chinese Govt then instituted an embargo on rare earths to Japan. This happened only recently.
China is flexing its muscle all over the South China Sea and is in dispute with practically every country that has a shore line on the Sea.

Time: 5th February 2012 6:29pm

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snottiegobble says...
Confucious say " China who buy merino from Australia no longer needs Aussie wool! Just one incidence of complete disregard for the future & its obvious repercussions, Gus did you know that the Japanese government used tsunami funds of $27 million to provide security vessels for the whalers in Southern Ocean this summer? Please ask your Japanese friends if they knew!! I bet they didnt!

Time: 5th February 2012 7:08pm

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amanda says...
I don't think this is about feeling threatened? (not yet anyway :) It's about sharing food and water resources into the future, equitably.

If some countries are making these moves to ensure their food security..then why aren't we? Do they know something we don't?

If u read the ABC link u can see that the problem lies with the FIRB (Foreign investment review board)

I could be totally wrong here - but I don't think that these countries are buying key Ag assets just to turn a profit here...? Even our own farmers are having trouble doing that themselves..? ;-)



Time: 5th February 2012 7:15pm

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Gus says...
I doubt they knew that either Snottie.
For a "free" first world country I found their media to be rather restricted. I guess to see that first hand made me question the selective nature of what we are fed hear.
Look back on any era of Australian history and we have every right to be embarresed.

Time: 5th February 2012 7:55pm

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amanda says...
Hard to imagine on our side of the fence Mike - but we had a global food shortage crisis in just 2008:

http://www.unctad.org/sections/edm_dir/docs/osg_2008_1_en.pdf

(This article by the UN)

This is not new and will likely get worse.

Time: 5th February 2012 8:03pm

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amanda says...
U don't think the Ag stuff is being bought up for a future trade off in Carbon Tax credits on the world market maybe?

And for the food produced on that land...will it be staying here, traded locally or will it automatically leave the country to go to it's owners?

Time: 5th February 2012 8:21pm

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john says...
If buying land by Chinese sovereign wealth funds is so innocuous and holds few risks for Australia,why is it not possible for Australians to buy land in China ? It is because China knows that a foreign entity will impinge on sovereignty and take decisions that are not always in the best interests of the host country.

Time: 6th February 2012 9:17am

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amanda says...
Well one thing that is likely - is that we will probably have to grow a lot more of our food at home - just like in the "old" days maybe?

Maybe that book might be worth a read too - it's certainly being quoted a great deal in the media.

I don't understand why don't just lease the land instead of selling it. Maybe a 99yr lease and see how things go.

Time: 6th February 2012 9:44am

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John I. says...
It's not just that other countries are buying up our land (this includes Canada by the way), the land is being bought up by large companies. As one farmer recently put it, Australian farmers will eventually be little more than serfs.

Time: 6th February 2012 10:01am

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Gus says...
Good point Amanda.

Otherwise we will probably pay a kings ransom to buy it back if ever we need too.



Time: 6th February 2012 10:25am

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bobbles says...
If a foreign entity (individual, or a company) wishes to purchase land or assets in Australia, it needs to be approved by the FIRB (Foreign Investment Review Board). Yup, even if someone is here for a few years on a working visa and wants to buy their own home. There is a very strict process. Plus, if everything goes totally to custard the government can seize the assets back (not that I'd encourage that as it is a pretty big deal). Foreign investment is not necessarily a bad thing - improvement requires capital outlay and sometimes that comes from overseas.
I'd be more concerned by the houses we're plonking on prime agricultural land ... that is something we won't get back.

Time: 6th February 2012 11:37am

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John says...
The FIRB is a pretty tame watchdog. Its rare arousal from torpor was when Chinese interests tried to buy land near the Woomera Rocket range and the FIRB cited security as a reason for rejecting.
No,Bobbles, the Govt is forbidden by the Constitution from seizing land without fair compensation. It needs to be understood that the Chinese will be in adversarial position with the West for a long time, this being a consequence of the very nature of the Chinese regime.(Regime because they shot their way to power in 1949 and have not had an election since)

Time: 6th February 2012 12:33pm

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amanda says...
Read the ABC link bobbles:
"The sale of agricultural land is exempt under Foreign Investment Review Board regulations and the FIRB

Time: 6th February 2012 1:39pm

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peter says...
i think it is actualy any real estate
with a value exceeding 231m

the govt has recently increased this
figure to around 350m.

Time: 6th February 2012 2:48pm

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bobbles says...
I

Time: 6th February 2012 4:43pm

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bobbles says...
Thanks Mike, I guess I

Time: 6th February 2012 5:44pm

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amanda says...
I thought we were already having a kind of water-war over the Murray river water resources?

But why is the Govt offering $50 million to buy back the water rights of Bencubbin (station is it?) because of it's possible sale to as yet unknown foreigners?

Is our water something that could be bought and sold in speculative markets? I don't know much about it - but it seems the same questions are being asked in other countries too:

http://www.horizons.gc.ca/doclib/SD_BN_Water%20Tradable_e.pdf

(And how can "unknown" interests even be allowed to purchase land in Aust to start with? That's pretty out there?)

Thanks for your post bobbles - it explains a bit more of the picture :) It would be really interesting to see if the activity in this area increases (if it does) from 2008 until a few years from now...?

From what I have gathered from the media links - it seems that there has been more activity in the last couple of years? I am wondering why that would be and what's going on?

Have our Laws changed? (or Govt ;) or is this just a bubble that has grown and finally burst into public conciousness?


Time: 6th February 2012 6:00pm

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amanda says...
And I think people will fear it, naturally, if it they don't have the answers to their questions at their fingertips?
That's pretty normal/understandable.

It's good, and healthy, to ask questions!? :)

That's why I am asking questions too...to try and understand this - amoungst folk who are growers and care about the land etc?
The pollies don't seem to be able clarify the situation? :D

We don't even have a National Food Security Plan..? Other developed countries do?

Time: 6th February 2012 6:17pm

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amanda says...
I kind of disagree Mike - it was important enough for the ABS to launch into their review only last year? this is a Govt Dept - not the Media..?

"Currently there is very little information available on the level of foreign ownership of agricultural businesses, land and water rights within Australia."

(and water rights...?)

(link: http://abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DOSSbytitle/7D1341AF14A92E5ECA257829007BA6D0?OpenDocument

I just don't think we (Govt) have a handle on it - as usual. I will see if I can find out anything definitive tho.

ps: this link was really interesting...the good Senator didn't present in such a good light - but still - there were some points on both sides.
I have no trouble with foreign investment - but foreign ownership?

I still can't understand why we need to sell - rather than lease - like they do in other countries?

Anyway - this link is only a week old...and the jury is well and truly out! :)
I have really appreciated reading the posts here too.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/panel3a-firb/3798720

Time: 6th February 2012 7:58pm

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amanda says...
I do agree there Mike...whipping up hysteria helps nothing and only serves to divide public opinion. And it is not just China...Pakistan is buying Ag land in Africa too...? etc etc.

I am an idealist tho....if we are going to sell the farm...at least let some of the countries that Really need some of our growing land, buy it...not just the same World-wide wealthy countries feasting at the trough, as always..?

(and yes - I include Aust in that statement too...huge investments in African mineral wealth...we are no different)

Time: 6th February 2012 10:02pm

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amanda says...
Pfft...I am tired of being "politically correct" over these issues myself. People are starving and dying in this world - thru no fault of their own.
We are losing our humanity in thrum of politiking...here is an image for you...and then tell me that there "is no food shortage in this world"..?

Dunno what planet some people live on..but this is the one I live on...

We grow enuf food to feed the world..so why don't we feed the world? Wasn't GM supposed to be the saviour here..the end to world hunger..Yea right.

That is someones' daughter BTW.

(I realise this is "below the belt' as such...but - while we are here postulating over this n that over food...perhaps it would serve us well to remember that by accident of birth - some people don't live in the "lucky countries" as far as food goes?)



Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 6th February 2012 11:08pm

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jakfruit etiquette says...
World food crisis. I keep being told there is one. Is it because some people are starving to death? or because some people are eating themselves to death?
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 6th February 2012 11:42pm

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amanda says...
High Five, jakfruit etiquette! ;D

Time: 6th February 2012 11:47pm

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Gus says...
How did you take my photo Jakfruit?

Time: 6th February 2012 11:53pm

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amanda says...
Mike..I am not that complicated, to be frank. This is how I see my world. Very different to you perhaps. But just as valid?
"Set up"? U can't see the bones on that child? It's from National Geographic and the story behind that pic is utterly distressing (Was child B a set up too?)
The mother had to leave that child behind to die because she could not carry two children. Can u even imagine making that decision?

Check out the sand around that kid? I know that sand - very well. I have reticulation tho...and money.

It's all very well that people may need to die to restore the balance in this world...as long as it's not "me or mine"?

"More western food can mean more children being born"...

Whoa. Lets stop right there perhaps.

A change in topic? No it's not actually. If u don't think we will be running out of food anytime soon..think again. We already are!?
Maybe this is why our Ag assets are being snapped up? Duh.

I am sorry to aim both barrels at u here now...but I kind of felt it was necessary to bring the point home?

I am almost ashamed to call myself a "human" being.

Maybe it's all good over your side of Aust?...but over here - it's not. It's not good at all. And I can empathise with people around the world who are trying to survive in increasingly drier climates. My survival does not depend on my veg patch however.

It's all related, it's all linked. Look at the Big Picture.



Time: 7th February 2012 12:42am

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amanda says...
Photographers and reporters are there to report the facts to Us...not to save every sorry life that comes across their path...that our job...as "Humans"...

Time: 7th February 2012 12:51am

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amanda says...
Yes I agree Mike..but - we are not sharing the resources equally...(and the "buy up" is not going to make it any better?)

BOTH of those children are an aberration. But they do represent something very important here? think about it.

Yes populations do explode - so it is - in India, China, Ours, theirs, whatever.

But - why do we think that Africa is somehow "less" in this equation? Raped and pillaged, sold into slavery, blah blah.
And - is one life worth less than any other here?
(don't get me wrong - I think humans are fleas on the arse of the world - surprise!?) but - every living creature has a right to be here?

Wealthy nations are fat pigs feeding at the trough...we all know it - why can't we be honest enough to admit it?

It's just like GM - a few self interested people selling us all down the river..(without the paddles too)

I am starting to agree that food sovereignty is an issue of my generation..and my childs too.

No - it is about THAT child..cos there are millions of them. U are just too afraid to say it Mike.

We Can feed the world - once we all stop being so greedy?



Time: 7th February 2012 1:35am

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amanda says...
And yup..we have been sucked into GM just the same way. I can remember when it was very first sold to the public as a "means to end world hunger"....? How many years down the track..and has that happened?
It's a resounding No!?
Wake up World.

Time: 7th February 2012 2:32am

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amanda says...
Yes Mike..we see the world very differently..and for that I am thankful.

Time: 7th February 2012 2:58am

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amanda says...
As an aside Mike et al - we have had our very first local "test" GM canola crops harvested just this season, in Geraldton. "Round up Ready" canola.

No word at all about how the crops went etc? How much Round Up was sprayed directly onto the crop. Was it worth it etc? Yield? rah rah. The "media" has said nothing at all? Curious. Maybe not tho.

I am asking our local newspaper to do an "investigative" report on this (don't know if they are capable of that tho - they like more simple topics like super models etc ;)

Many farmers here refuse to grow GM..Why? Have we heard their voices here? I have - and they have some very interesting things to say.

For starters a GM crop is worth 45 bucks less per tonne..they have to buy the seed in too..they are locked into the ferts to make this crop grow..and the Round up...sound expensive yet? Yes.

They are worried about x-contamination with native brassicas, they have to pay more money to keep their seed segregated in trucking and storage..etc etc...

What's THAT about? It makes no sense to me?

These farmers are the Stewards of the land..the custodians of soil etc? Do u agree?

But - I also believe we all have a right to know everything, here - do u?

Or should we just not get "panicky"?

Not sure who is gullible here.. But I don't think it's me somehow..?

Question stuff ...lots! Until U are happy with the answers.

Don't be put off by the voices of "reason" here..they are just fence sitters - like our politicians.

Perhaps it's faux pa to have an actual opinion on anything these days.
I might change my name to a blokes name - just to see if I get treated differently. ;)

Time: 7th February 2012 5:14am

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amanda says...
Mike - you have failed to convince me on any single point there. I suspect U are alluding to the fact that people must die and that just they way it is.

Sure...lots of people feel that way. I can't - becuase I believe it lessens our Humanity, a great deal, to think that way.

And if I have no Humanity - then what the hell am I doing here?




Time: 7th February 2012 7:16am

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john says...
Seems like there is a competition in progress between Amanda ans Mike to see who is the bigger Humanitarian. Is it Mike or Amanda? I expect both of you are doing your personal utmost for Africa (other than writing posts). As for me ,I'm as distressed about Africa as Africa would be about me if our situations were reversed.

Time: 7th February 2012 8:15am

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Grant says...
I think it was an all nighter... Hic!!!

Time: 7th February 2012 10:00am

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bobbles says...
Amanda, your arguments are not coherent and thus it is very difficult to understand if you are seeking knowledge, or just frustrated. It almost seems that once your initial concerns are rebutted you move onto other issues.
Ownership or investment of a business in Australia is one topic.
Distribution of food is a different topic.
Even if a foreign investor owns a farm in Australia this does not mean they can choose to farm the animals as per their country of residence, or to use chemicals plants that are lawful in their resident country but not in Australia. GM again will be governed by Australian laws - irrespective of the country of residence of the farm owner. Furthermore, they will not necessarily profit from collecting the food grown and shipping it back to another country to sell. They cannot even take every cent and remove it from the country (as the Australian government taxes it and keeps an eye on what is leaving the country and where it is leaving to). Assets of a business can be frozen even easier than compulsory acquisition of land. Foreign ownership is about profiting from a business. If they can make more profit selling food to Australians then food will be sold to Australians.
There is poverty and starvation on most continents. Zimbabwe used to be the

Time: 7th February 2012 11:53am

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amanda says...
Yup Grant is the most insightful here! Hic! :D

Time: 7th February 2012 1:25pm

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Grant says...
....................../

Time: 7th February 2012 1:34pm

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amanda says...
Bobbles..that is an excellent post..and I do agree with you. It doesn't mean I have to think it is right, nor accept it tho?
This is a linked argument actually. U can't possible deny that our wealthy socities have risen on the backs of many of these "less fortunate in life"...?

The world is experiencing climate change, for whatever reason. Food and water are becoming major issues to be faced by the coming generations. But there is no need for the suffering we see in this modern world today.

And those buying up the food and water resources - their motive is not to make money....do our farmers not tell us every year that they are broke?? That price wars, drought, flood are breaking their backs? etc etc.
Someone is not telling the truth here, I suspect.

The very post above is a point in fact of just how immune/hardened we have become to the plight of others in this world, that we can even talk about it in such detached terms.

I posted those photos because some don't seem to realise there actually is a food shortage in this world - and the photos are humanising, whether we like it or not ( I suspect not) If u cannot see the glaring point between those two girls - then I give up, truly.

No, I don't need to put on a "suit" to know and say this is inherently wrong.

I can vote instead ;-)

Time: 7th February 2012 1:57pm

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john says...
See , Bobbles. Amanda agrees with you ...but doesn't think it's right. Got that?

Time: 7th February 2012 2:56pm

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amanda says...
Well, at the end of the day I really hope that we are not making a mistake selling our water rights and key Ag assets. It will be interesting to see what the powers that be do end up deciding...

Time: 7th February 2012 6:46pm

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amanda says...
(ps just changing the photo - I am guessing we don't want to be looking at the beauty queen all the time? ;)
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 7th February 2012 6:57pm

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john says...
Here's why it's not a good idea to have a potential enemy owning tracts of your country. Suppose China finally makes good on its threat to retake Taiwan by force. The US Navy intervenes as it has said it would. Australia joins its ally, the US, in the conflict as set out in the ANZUS treaty. Do you suppose China will not utilise its toe hold in some way?. What if they release Foot and Mouth virus. Too fanciful? Crazy talk? Would you have believed that British-born Muslims would blow up the underground?

Time: 8th February 2012 7:31am

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Grant says...
Nice picture of a finger..... Different Grant though :P

Time: 8th February 2012 12:25pm

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snottiegobble says...
The simple truth is that most of us are not satisfied with just sustainable living! Apart from maybe true budhists we ALL wish to improve our lot no matter who how rich or how poor! In the western world there is the never ending need to develop, more new houses, more new estates, more new towns & bigger cities!
Everyone on this forum will either have a tradie in the family or at least know one! He makes a good living building, roofing, plumbing & carpentry. Without this continual expansion he would be out of work because repair work is minimal!
So we will grow & grow until the end is nigh. The seas will die first from pollution & over fishing, & the salt will rise to poison the land.( It already does in some areas!) I have a 2 year old granddaughter & another grandchild due in 3 months! I certainly wouldnt like to be in their shoes! I am Sad!! Oh BTW Daddy is a builder!

Time: 8th February 2012 6:04pm

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amanda says...
Grant - it's ok mate - I actually was as drunk as a skunk! oops :) Snottie - I am with you here.
In that vein also, I admire China for introducing the one child policy...that takes tremendous guts.
Mike - I also agree with your very funny post :)
john also lends an insight too...one that is often brutally truthful.
We all have thoughts and opinions. It's all good.

I just find the whole concept does not "ring true" somehow - for whatever reason.
Aust - some of the worlds poorest soils, unpredictable weather and disasters, pest plagues, land rights, unreliable water supplies...big inputs - fert's, labour etc.

Why buy here?
Maybe because they CAN..?
I don't know - but for reasons I can't quite put my finger on, I don't think it's the right thing to do - without much more thought and public input etc. I am getting a bit tired of our Govt's just doing stuff, regardless. I thought we lived in a Democracy.

A luxury waterfront property, flats etc...no problem though.
This is different, for me, for some reason, and I wasn't even born here...

Time: 8th February 2012 11:45pm

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amanda says...
What?! I have been saying the same things!? I knew I should have come on here as a bloke persona :D Pfft.

Time: 9th February 2012 12:31am

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amanda says...
No. And u if had read my posts properly u would see that Mike? Read them again and then get back to me. What I am saying is that it is the wealthy countries are feeding at the trough as always.

Pretty similar to SG actually. and David Suzuki too? And many others.

I know exactly what I am saying. Do u?

Time: 9th February 2012 1:05am

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amanda says...
Mike..I can't say it any better than this. I suggest u take the time to download. This is exactly my agrgument:

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2010/11/16/3066634.htm

Enjoy :)

(ps Mike - u have been quite belittling here:
"Amanda weren't you saying that starving african kids were going to buy up Australia because of climate change and thirsty foreigners would buy all our water?"

Hmnnnn?

Time: 9th February 2012 1:40am

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Grant says...
Sounds like incoherent rambling (and ranting) that makes neither sense nor adds any value to the topic in question.



Time: 9th February 2012 10:38am

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Grant says...
You're a funny guy Grant :P

Time: 9th February 2012 1:01pm

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john says...
I am afraid i have reached a low ebb in my life-- reluctantly have to agree with SG, sob!. Sustainable living is a non starter. We are programmed to amass resources and diplay our fitness to mate. Try getting a partner if all you're offering is "sustainable living". You may as well be gosh- ugly and have a communicable disease. I'm afraid we're doomed unless human females suddenly decide to prefer meek, unambitous males with a really nice vegie patch. Me,I'll bet on the guy with the sports car.

Time: 9th February 2012 5:03pm

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amanda says...
:-D It's pretty much what David Suzuki says in that link too (about sustainable living etc) Wow..have we actually agreed on something?
That's it I am off to go retail shopping for more stuff, to celebrate ;o)

Time: 9th February 2012 5:53pm

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Gus says...
You mean Wendy Deng wasn't attracted by a bumper crop of Ruperts Tomatoes?

Time: 9th February 2012 10:02pm

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john says...
I'll break it to you gently,Gus, Wendy did notice a bulge on Rupert but it was his wallet. Seriously ,though, it appears to be a little more complicated . What looks like pure avarice and exploitation on the part of "gold-diggers" is not quite that. Men with great wealth actually look more desirable; I call it the Merc effect. A man in a Mercedes just looks so much better to the opposite sex. That's why we're doomed.

Time: 10th February 2012 9:27am

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amanda says...
That's a bit old fashioned...most women can buy their own sports cars these days :)

Time: 10th February 2012 10:03am

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Gus says...
My wife said she married me for my apples.

Time: 10th February 2012 11:59am

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Grant says...
Your Adam's apple perhaps?

Time: 10th February 2012 1:12pm

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john says...
Did you get down on one knee and say "Will you marry me and share my sustainable life style"?

Time: 10th February 2012 1:27pm

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snottiegobble says...
And she said "Yes, as long as youre not rotten to the core & can promise never to give me the pip" !

Time: 10th February 2012 8:03pm

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Mike says...
And now you're a pear and the relationship has taken root.If you were a pom you would always have the pips.

Time: 10th February 2012 8:32pm

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Gus says...
Yes she was very attracted by my sustainable lifestyle and my veggie patch.
I don't think she even knew about my giant house and porsche when she said yes.

Time: 10th February 2012 9:33pm

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Mike says...
Maybe there is hope of humanity getting out of the consumptive cycle then if you only had to show her 'the green'.I wonder if others would put their money where their mouth is.

Time: 10th February 2012 10:50pm

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Mike says...
I suppose after the initial spice you have to be able to veg out together.

Time: 11th February 2012 2:28pm

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john says...
To Amanda re "the woman can afford the sports car herself" I can ^%#^& by myself but I still prefer a partner.

Time: 11th February 2012 4:03pm

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Mike says...
It sounds like the world is hostage and men are victims to the genetically programmed desire of women for lots of resources then.

Time: 11th February 2012 4:20pm

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john says...
Yup , you've got it , Mike. Eve did not just eat the apple and got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden she also wanted some "nice things" like shoes and matching handbag and could not be expected to put up with that "awful settee" etc etc etc.

Time: 11th February 2012 5:09pm

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Mike says...
John now that is plain wrong.The biblical translation wrongfully called the fruit an apple.We were in fact sold up the river for an apricot.
Those selfish genes!

Time: 11th February 2012 5:18pm

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amanda says...
I can't comment - I married well below my salary level...sigh... ;-)

Time: 13th February 2012 8:22pm

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john says...
Hmm, the apricot is described as being either of Chinese origin or Armenian descent . As the Bible, Old Testament, was written by Jews in Israel about 700 BC we can come to various conclusions - The Jews are actually Chinese or Armenian. Or perhaps the biblical truth of the Bible ain't so.

Time: 14th February 2012 8:38am

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Gus says...
Sure, and I got in trouble cause watermelons aren't a tree.

Time: 14th February 2012 10:43am

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snottiegobble says...
The apricot is regarded as an ayurdevic fruit(specially the bitter apricot) in Armenia, & Afghanistan so I cant see why China would lay claims to its origin! I suppose its kinda like NZ with the Chinese gooseberry
As regards the bible, have you ever played the childrens party game where they sit in a circle & one child whispers something to the next & so on? Then by the time it gets back to the first child the story is either completely different or grossly exaggerated. Well,having 2000 years to circulate,thats how I see the bible!

Time: 14th February 2012 3:51pm

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john says...
Hmmm, Gus. Someone will have to take you in hand because watermelons are ,indeed, not a tree.

Time: 14th February 2012 3:53pm

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Mike says...
China is the centre of diversity and the original home of apricots.By 3000 years ago their cultivation had spread to India.The hebrew word 'tappauch' baffled William Tyndale in his 16th century bible translation so he just called the golden fruit apples,not knowing the tiny sour crab apples of hundreds of years previous would be an insulting offering and also being unaware of apricots.Widespread mediterranean cultivation of apricots didn't take place until about 100bc.Interestingly the writers ofthe bible borrowed stories like the prodigal son from the indian region, and words like jezabel changed meaning once translated into english.

Time: 14th February 2012 5:37pm

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john says...
See if I have this right. If cultivation of apricots did not reach the Mediterranean until 100BC why would the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament, circa 700BC, refer to a fruit that they, presumably, did not know of.?

Time: 14th February 2012 5:48pm

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Mike says...
No john the name for it is way older than formal cultivation by the greeks or romans.Odd trees and dried apricots from the east came to the middle east way before so it was well known not yet properly cultivated.700 BC writings were just part of the old testament.I am not religeous but as you have familiarity refer to Solomons musing in Proverbs 25:11 and his apricot references.Jonathan Roberts in the 2001 Harper Collins reference book,'the origins of fruit and vegetables' is quite clear that the apple was an apricot.

Time: 14th February 2012 6:18pm

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Gus says...
Hmmm John, I was in fact joking.
Someone may have to take YOU in hand and explain irony to you.

Time: 14th February 2012 8:17pm

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amanda says...
I see your post Mike ;-) Well..I guess it's the reason Man-kind has been going to war for 1000's of years perhaps? Nothing to do with the Queen mate ;)

"Resource" wars have been going on since man started walking ?? Not much has changed. Blokes still like whacking each other over the head with a club...it's just more subtle these days.

Anyway, we all know that Aust is selling the baby with the bathwater...it's part of why YOU/WE/ME have a great Standard of Living...?? For the time being.

I can't believe the naivety/innocence here..? Jason comes close to the truth.

Go to Port Hedland, for eg, and then say that the most-likely "richest town" in Aust has at all benefitted from the many years of lucrative iron ore mining there. It's still a Sh*t hole to this day..?

And yes...maybe 50% of my social circle is employed in the various mining industries, and FIFO, so I am actually fairly well informed. I have worked around the periphery of this industry in remote towns also. It's very much a way of life in WA too.

The Perth Domestic Airport is actually going to be turned over to solely FIFO mining workers (Fly in Fly out) and the domestic airport is going over to the International airport. It's that huge now?

WA should be "rolling in the clover"...Newsflash...it's not. Personal wealth is higher - but as far as health care and infrastructure...Pfft. The cost of living is very high - take food for eg.

Wake up Australia. We are being sucked dry... :-( And when the resources have all been sold - what then? What's left?

"Personal wealth" is not the answer here.

(ps - the "Merc dude" just does not do it for me - they are usually substituting for a "lack" of something, somewhere... ;)



Time: 14th February 2012 10:56pm

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Mike says...
Perhaps you are right amanda in that australians would not go to fight englands wars to protect the queen and motherland.We would never leave our own country short doing it at least.

Everything is a resource and wars are getting less frequent with fewer casualties.Racial,political and religeous intolerance and nationalism could also be behind some conflicts.

MtIsa is pretty rich as well so Port Headland must be pretty ordinary in many respects.Mining has a intense impact on a limited scale,with the exception of surface and groundwater unlike some activities that have widespread impacts on landscapes.The real issue is the race to get 'public' resources as fast as possible while relatively few benefit.If we didn't flog out the low hanging fruit ASAP we would be in better shape in the future.The power of the mining lobby and the political systems will probably ensure the staus quo remains with wealth sharing.

Time: 14th February 2012 11:23pm

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amanda says...
PS..Australians need to get out and see more of their own Country b4 they make broad and sweeping statements perhaps?

Wonder how many aussies could handle spending a week in Booralooloo, Weipa, Normanton, Derby, Roper River, Doomagee etc...?

Get out there and see it for yourself b4 u pass judgement perhaps.

I wasn't even born here - but I have been to maybe 80% of the top end? It's a different world - but it's also a big part of "Australia" and it's identity..?

It's not all about our capital cities at all!? We are very city-centric :(

U can "hide" a lot in the Aust country...out of sight out of mind maybe...?

If this country wasn't so damn huge - u might care a lot more perhaps..?

EG: hands up who has a) heard of Ningaloo reef and b) been there?

Did u know that oil exploration licences are being granted for this Marine Park?
Are we selling our soul? I say YES.

Time: 14th February 2012 11:34pm

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Mike says...
I have been to most of those places and many more obscure and dealt with mining issues alot.It doesn't mean my opinion should carry more weight than city confined or foreign born folk or that such people don't care about environmental problems.

What are the sweeping statements and judgements passed you are talking about?I find that many people actually do judge isuues on their merits and are not swayed by sweeping statements.The great barrier reef,wet tropics and tasmanian wilderness were largely protected because of city muscle of ordinary voters who made a difference.

Time: 15th February 2012 12:00am

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amanda says...
Bobbles says (and see the hypocrasy here?)
your arguments are not coherent and thus it is very difficult to understand if you are seeking knowledge, or just frustrated. It almost seems that once your initial concerns are rebutted you move onto other issues.

Well...I didn't bring up God and Mens inferiority complex that's for sure :D

Time: 15th February 2012 1:55am

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Jason says...
Unless my understanding is wrong the Apricot originated in the region around Kyrgyzstan, that's where they find all the good Apricots varieties like the White ones (That I've wanted a seed from for like 12 years and never yet got one yet :( ). Where ever you find the most diversity in a species that's it's home base or perhaps in the Humans case where they cross bred with another species or maybe those are both one and the same thing!.. in any case the Apricot came from that area around Kyrgyzstan :)

Time: 15th February 2012 2:13am

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amanda says...
Yes...the apricot was the downfall of civilisation for sure.

Time: 15th February 2012 2:16am

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amanda says...
It's one thing to "care about" environmental problems et al - that part is dead easy. It's quite another to actually walk your talk and actually DO something?

Yes - many of us care...but what do we actually "DO"...?

I don't do much, to be honest. Nor do most people I know...? All too busy raising kids and paying major mortgages and credit cards?

Who really has time to care the Black Rhino will become extinct in the next 20yrs...? Just one creature.

There-in the problem with our Society perhaps.

Time: 15th February 2012 2:46am

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Jason says...
The only thing I'm sure about is if you aren't doing your best you aren't caring :). Your best might not be much and I'm also sure no ones best is enough, but at least it's slowing the process down and that might give bird flu time enough to evolve and do it's job

Time: 15th February 2012 4:11am

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GardeningAustraliaWanabee says...
It looks like help of a medical kind is needed for one who clearly has lost their marbles.
I haven't been to Ningaloo reef and never will, but it has no relevance to food security. Join an environmental group or start your own, rather then belittle members because they don't live in your small world.

Time: 15th February 2012 7:27am

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john says...
It seems that it is time to remind all that their is a "truce" at this site! Odd,is it not, that many people here decry human behaviour in the wider world yet are unable to disagree civilly. As I said we are doomed.

Time: 15th February 2012 7:42am

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snottiegobble says...
Want to do something worthwhile for the environment & your kids kids etc??? Well
support sea shepherd.org financially or at least one of your active groups re.saving black cockatoos, gas fracking,etc! Or world heritage organisations, for tigers, rhinos,Sumatran elephants,orangs etc.
We can all sit & complain with our fingers here & upset each other, but what good does it do?????

Time: 15th February 2012 12:18pm

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Mike says...
john I will take your advice and not respond to the 'wined' up or try to revive first casualty of war.On the apricot question I understand that the Armenian diversity is due to a secondary radiation due to people and the silk road proximity and began just 2200 short years ago.

Time: 15th February 2012 7:35pm

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john says...
I applaud your forbearance, Mike. As to the apricots ,it is more credible that you would risk the wrath of God for an apricot as the best of that species is truly orgasmic whereas a good apple is merely a good apple.

Time: 16th February 2012 8:49am

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Mike says...
I agree john and apples of the day might provoke supernatural crabbiness.

Time: 16th February 2012 5:24pm

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