Chance seedlings and genetics (forum)

amanda starts with ...
I was wondering how a home grower might know if they had a chance seedling/plant worth checking out further?

Eg: I have this strange passionfruit vine that I think is pretty amazing...perfect in every way except - the fruit is really sour (naturally...)

Could it be crossed with a different, sweeter strain to perhaps produce something new/better? And if so - what type of vine would I cross it with?

(This vine was purchased as a NAMED "Big Red" P.cinnabarina...? (seedling)

It's definitely not that :D

Anyway - this vine is so tough and uber-fertile. The fruit is jam packed with lovely (sour) pulp. It is totally not cared for at all...(you can see the sand around it and all the ignored fruit...oops)

I have been actually wanting this main vine to die - so withdrew water 2 MONTHS ago. That's usually a death sentence in my climate. Not so - and the new 2cm fruit just starting to give up now.

Then - this other chance seedling came up in the chook pen - so I planted it just for fun. That was 5 months ago at the most...it's already flowering and fruiting. It hasn't been watered for quite awhile either. I am going to keep it to see what the fruit is like...but I suspect it's another "Big Red"..?

I have Panama Red and gold, one NK purple (with woodiness virus) and a sunshine special nearby. Could it have crossed with one of these for this seedling?

Also - what the hell is it?? (the Big Red..?)

Many thanks for any enlightment.. ;-)

(ps pic 1 and 2 are tha chance seedling)
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3
Picture: 4

Time: 25th April 2012 7:57pm

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About the Author amanda19
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Mike says...
Amanda it sure looks like a P.edulis flavicarpa so may be panama offspring.What colour are ripe fruit and the pulp around the seeds,and what size are the seeds.Passionfruit cross in clades eg alata can cross with granadilla.You should be able to cross it with other edulis.Good vines are sometimes super-productive and full and be next to a sibling that drags its backside.

Time: 25th April 2012 8:07pm

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amanda says...
Hi Mike - the big parent vine here - I purchased from Bunnings (and the label says "WA Bred"..)
The fruit is very yellow (so not a "Big Red"..lol) and beautifully round with a really nice solid 'shell' - it is smaller than my pan red or gold - maybe a "purple" size ratio - but heaps heavier/fuller.

The pulp is orange-ish. The seeds look normal to me..?

The brand new growth is red - then changing to green as it matures.

I am just amazed by it's health and vigor in my crap climate - so just a gut feeling I guess...?

Thanks for the info too! :)

Time: 25th April 2012 8:23pm

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Mike says...
I'd be rootin for a yellow panama seedling alright and in the law of the jungle the most vigorous seedling has thrived.The traditional method of finding one suitable for the area is to throw 100's of seeds around and see what grows best.It would be hard to know if it self crossed and was not true to type or outcrossed and the flavicarpa phenotype dominated.As a general rule pulp colour ranges from deep orange in african yellow,orange-yellow in yellow panama,yellow-orange in red panama, pale yellow in most edulis and colours between for crosses.P.e.flavicarpa types have slightly larger seeds than P.e.e's.I bet you keep the sourness going in any cross unless you selected from alot of progeny.

Time: 25th April 2012 8:38pm

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amanda says...
Ah! That's really interesting Mike..thanks heaps. This vine has been bugging me for awhile now. Must have had a 'contaminant' at the place where they bred these Big Reds then...?

My grafted Pan yellow (nellie kellie) is very different looking to this...(it's huge and more oblong in shape) is that just it's breeeding/brand name?

My best guess is that this weird vine is self-fertile actually...? There are no other flowers very close by at all now (I am getting rid of nearly all my vines now)

Maybe it might only be good for a rootstock (for Geraldton)...?? hehe.

Time: 25th April 2012 8:53pm

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amanda says...
(ps - it's deep orange)

Time: 25th April 2012 8:54pm

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Mike says...
Amanda I would give some K,P,S and micros to see if the sourness is partly environmental before chopping it.I don't know how successful topworking passionfruit would be.
I can't grow edulis or edulis flav crosses and red panama never tastes good enough.It is only african yellow and panama yellow as a support act now and maybe the little granadilla in the future.I have a mystery species that fell into my hands through a dubious pathway and may be maliformis and I'm almost tempted to plant seeds from a goog ligularis I had some weeks ago.

Time: 25th April 2012 9:03pm

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amanda says...
Too hot in Cairns for the true purples/edulis Mike?

I must admit I am a sucker for anything with an edulis purple in it's genes...I like my pan reds n gold...but I drool over my purples (and I am horribly selfish and eat the whole lot myself too! :D

Have you tried a Sunshine special or any other of the newer purples coming out?

(I can't grow the N.Kellie purples for eg - too hot for them here too...but S.special is going well...?
It's still 20 (min) to 30 oC here at present - so a pretty warm coastal climate most of the time..(except Aug/Sept...a bit brrr! :)

Time: 25th April 2012 9:35pm

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Mike says...
Yes it is too warm for purples and I can't remember the names of the purples I've had when I go to more southerly places or try tableland ones.I doubt I have tried a sunshine but I have had some good edulis.Mind you I have never had a purple that is even as good as a common old panama yellow and certainly none with the exquisite flavour of an african yellow.Then again the hawaiin yellow flavicarpa is pretty ordinary.

Time: 25th April 2012 9:51pm

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amanda says...
What's an African yellow Mike? Never heard anyone mention it b4 you....is it one on this list at all..?

(scroll down, and list on the left)

http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/lilikoi.htm

(ps - funny about taste buds tho...I much prefer the intensity of a good purple to a panama yellow myself - they are wonderfully sweet but lack complexity for my taste buds... :)

Time: 25th April 2012 10:07pm

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Mike says...
No it is just a better flavicarpa and all good flavicarpas are australian or began here.Hawaiin yellows probably came from australia and apparently there are no good flavs in brazil,their ancestral home.In other places the purples are better than the yellows.There are all sorts of good seedling yellows in backyards in Qld.
I have only seen the africans for sale from limberlost.I grew one before and it was quite a sensation with all who tried it.They had africans again recently and I got one.The tag was for panama but it was crossed out with african on it.I have eaten passionfruit around africa and never tried anything like this.I suspect it may have been a chance local seedling.

Time: 25th April 2012 10:30pm

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Mike says...
It is like comparing the old sour pineapples with the new golds trhat are perhaps less complex.Africans have a strong aroma and combination of pleasant real passionfruit flavours without the acid.Durian,maybe marang and chemadak are what I'd go for to get complexity.

Time: 25th April 2012 10:36pm

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amanda says...
Sounds nice Mike...why aren't we seeing them for sale at Daleys I wonder..? So many passionfruit - so little time! :D

Any types that grow well outside of strictly tropical are worth having a go at I reckon. C'mon Daleys!?

Also - Mike it's absolutely true that a womans taste buds are more sensitive to the different flavours... ;-)


Time: 26th April 2012 9:35am

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Jason says...
It might be just me but aren't passion fruits good BECAUSE they are sour? can't imagine a sweet passion fruit be worth eating or useful to flavour anything

Time: 26th April 2012 4:39pm

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amanda says...
Lol...I am with you Jason :) I call it "Tang" for passionfruit...? Panamas on a Pavalova are just not the same!? :D

Now what I would like to breed is a BIG purple with the flavour of a Sunshine Special...then I will die happy...!?

(ps - sadly this weird yellow one is sour like a lemon... :-( Even I struggle with it...)

Time: 26th April 2012 6:45pm

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Jason says...
You just need an extra sweet ice cream under the extra sour Amanda special passionfruit. Then it'll be all good

Time: 27th April 2012 10:54pm

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amanda says...
I choose Low GI sugar Jason.. ;-D
Can't wait to try the offspring tho...not cos I think it will be anything special at all - but just because I Can - within 6 months...?!
It's kind of fun when u don't have to wait 5yrs to find out...? lol..

I could get quite addicted to breeding passionfruit tho. I guess this is what motivates many of us in the end - and how new cultivars appear.

The other fruit I am very interested in right now is Pomegranates.
The sub tropicals, arids and temperates can produce equally healthy fruit (if not more so actually) as the show off tropics ;-)

Time: 27th April 2012 11:53pm

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VF says...
Solution Amanda : eat with Miracle Fruit!

Time: 28th April 2012 1:44am

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amanda says...
excellent suggestion VF!? :D

Time: 28th April 2012 1:46am

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Mike T says...
Doesn't sourness mask flavour?I know sweet passionfruit,pineapples,grapes,plums and in fact sweet varieties of most fruit are more expensive than sour ones.I say give sweet fruit and sourness is not complexity.I'd rather have a sweetie-pie than a sour-puss,a sweet carambola than a sour one and a sweet mandarin than a sour one.The distance between a good yellow passionfruit and a good purple one is a huge.I think you could make purple passionfruit pulp by mixing Amandas' sour seedlings' pulp with that of a panama.

Time: 28th April 2012 5:16pm

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amanda says...
Depends on the fruit Mike...? We have a Kaffir plum - it's tart but the flavour is great!? We all love sucking on them (no skins) - they have a lovely musky overtone. It's part of their charm and I wouldn't change them.

Isn't there and ideal sub-acid flavour that tends to appeal to the human taste buds..?

We will have to agree to disagree on the passionfruit I think ;-)

Maybe you have only had badly grown and/or poor varieties.

Time: 29th April 2012 9:38am

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Mike says...
Amanda you are probably correct that I have never tried a good purple passionfruit variety.Those in the supermarkets are a disgrace.I can't think of any fruit offhand where sour varieties or individuals are better than sweet ones.Maybe grapes and strawberries some folk prefer sour sour ones.

Time: 29th April 2012 1:12pm

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amanda says...
Lemons, limes and grapefruit? ;D Sour cherries. Kiwifruit pretty tangy also. Tamarillos. Tamarind. Tangello maybe.
(lemons and limes are "sour" for me - the others are just "tangy"...my husband can't handle any sub-acidity in his fruit at all...great for me as I get to eat most of the passionfruit :)

Some folks do and some don't I guess...

Time: 29th April 2012 5:12pm

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Mike T says...
Sweet tamarinds are the expensive ones and even more useful than the standards.Seeds are coming my way.Lemons,limes,naranjillas and billimbis are used in cooking and dished for their sourness but I prefer sweet grapefruit and tangellos to sour ones.If the sourness is due to oleic acid like in a green carambola it is hard to take.

Time: 29th April 2012 8:50pm

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Nick T says...
If only they sold sweet tamarind (or any tamarinds for that matter!) down here, I'd stuff myself with them! I'm hooked after trying so many beautiful tamarind dishes in Thailand :)

Time: 29th April 2012 9:58pm

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amanda says...
"Sweet" tamarind??? You guys are heathens! :D



Time: 29th April 2012 10:08pm

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Mike T says...
Nick T I have become Mike T with the identity crisis.It is odd to see kids in the street eating them like lollies and we don't have them here.That is all about to change because I have had someone hurdling farm fenced around Sisaket and they have secured seeds.Only the Einsteins in customs can thwart me me now.

Time: 29th April 2012 10:20pm

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Nick T says...
That must be very exciting, the seeds should come in because they're permitted (i got some through from Thailand but that was mainly due to the fact that the guy at customs had no clue what a tamarind seed looks like!). I was surprised because I tried some fruit off what was probably a wild seedling at a port and it was really sweet, of course with that tanginess that makes you want more! As a separate question, are tamarind trees deciduous at all, at least down here in vic?

Time: 29th April 2012 11:00pm

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Mike T says...
Nick I doubt they'll loose too many leaflets and just seem to thin them out in cold,dry times.It is that level of expertise in customs that can work against you as well.

Time: 29th April 2012 11:12pm

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amanda says...
Wish U were here Mike ;-D These are pretty tasty! (sunshine special) Even the outsides/shell of them smell divine!
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 30th April 2012 11:20am

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JUJUBE FOR SALE IN MELBOURNE says...
Yummy! Lucky you Amanda. Well done

Time: 30th April 2012 12:02pm

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MaryT says...
Amanda I wish I was there as well. Those are 98 cents each at Woolies today! The shell of the passionfruit can be made into jam.

Time: 30th April 2012 12:07pm

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Mike says...
Wow they look great and a bit like panama reds.Are you sure they don't have any flavicarpa blood (sap)?Aficans have a sweet aroma that carries a long way and they must be the same.

Time: 30th April 2012 7:10pm

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amanda says...
Sadly - I have never been able to find the parentage of these? I wouldn't be surprised tho Mike...the best of both types - it's a marriage made in heaven I reckon!? :D

I have never heard of making jam from the shell MaryT - u are full of interesting info :) Wonder what it would taste like...it sounds really weird? :)
$1 is cheap! Ours finally down to $1.50

- but they are the horrible sour purples like Mike mentioned.

Time: 30th April 2012 9:02pm

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MaryT says...
Here's the recipe Amanda:


Ingredients for passionfruit Jam
24 passionfruit

1 cup water
juice of 1 lemon
1.1 kg sugar




1. Wash the passionfruit well. Cut in half, scoop out the pulp and set aside. Put half the passionfruit shells in a bowl, cover with the water and leave overnight.
2. Transfer the shells and water to a pan and boil for about 30 minutes, or until the insides of the shells are tender. Drain the shells, scoop out the soft pulp inside and discard the shells. Chop up the pulp.
3. Put the pulp, reserved passionfruit and water in a pan and bring to the boil. Add the lemon juice and sugar, stir until dissolved and boil rapidly to setting point.

Time: 30th April 2012 9:27pm

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amanda says...
Thanks MaryT (I see it's the pith not the shell now! hehe)

Time: 1st May 2012 12:22pm

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