Plant ID Help (forum)

Charles cant spell starts with ...
Hoping you clever folks have the answers again. I will do 3 posts with different plants/pics to avoid confusion.
Plant 1
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Picture: 1
Picture: 2

Time: 29th April 2011 1:52am

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Charles cant spell says...
Plant 2
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Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3
Picture: 4

Time: 29th April 2011 1:52am

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Charles cant spell says...
Plant 3
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Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3
Picture: 4

Time: 29th April 2011 1:53am

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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KjW says...
G/day Charles.
I'll take a guess and say

#1 is a Custard Apple ?

#2 is a Sacred Bamboo ?

#3 is a Jaboticaba ?

Time: 29th April 2011 7:12am

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About the Author John42
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JUJUBE FOR SALE says...
Hi Charles,

I think
1) chocolate
2) Rose
3) jaboticaba

Time: 29th April 2011 7:51am

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Peter says...
3) jaboticaba
2) can you sent a pic with open flowers please. Can't be rose, can't be bamboo. Do you have any extra info to the plant?
1) Do the leaves stink if you crush them? When you spray the leaves with water, are they repell the water? Do you see a small bud just above where the leaf attaches to the stem (almost all plants) or if you break off a leaf from the stem is a bud hidden in the point where the leaf was attached?

Time: 29th April 2011 9:25am

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About the Author Peter36
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paula-f says...
Not sure of the first one....but agree with KjW on the second one being sacred bamboo (nandina), and third being jabotica.

Time: 29th April 2011 10:16am

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About the Author paulaf1
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Peter says...
2) Yes, Sacred bamboo (=nandina, Nandina domestica (Berberidaceae))or at least something closely related.
Sorry, the common name tricked me - I just assumed it refers to bamboo from the grass family and of course it has nothing to do with them.

Now we really need more info on the first one. Your photos are excellent. Maybe take a pic of the area when you just broke off the leave (as suggested in my previous post), so we can all have a look.
Additionally any other botanical info such as description of flowers, time of events (leaf flushes, flowering,...) would assist.
Purchase info: Where did it come from? You being in Perth, I don't think you are able to get a chocolate tree, so more points to custard apple when looking at this two options. Could be something completely different as well.
We need to check the location of the leaf buds. If they are hidden in the area where the leaf stem attaches to the branch we straight away narow it down to custard apple or something closely related - no other plant does that.
By the way, this is very very amazing, completly off the ordinary morphology of any member in the kingdom of plants!!!

Time: 29th April 2011 10:43am

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KjW says...
I could be wrong, but I think Charles knows what the plants are, he just wants to see if others can recognise them by his pics.
Wouldn't be much point in giving too much info if that's the case.

Time: 29th April 2011 10:54am

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KjW says...
Attached is a leaf off of my Brazilian Custard Apple. Looks similar to plant 1 to me

Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 29th April 2011 11:06am

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About the Author John42
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Charles cant spell says...
Nope definitely did not know these, she had hundreds of other trees and its a job ID'ing them as none are ever labeled in tree Joy fashion, still it keeps me and her sharp arguing our opinions :)
I wouldnt like to waste helpful peoples time, as while it is fun to be challanged there are enough legitimate questions on this forum already, these platns are extra tricky as being tropical growing in the South West WA (Pemby) they are offen dwarfed or malformed etc.
Thanks for the input, wont be back in Pemberton for a few week Peter, that plant 2 will be dormant next time but I will try gather a little more info, maybe ring mum. Otherwise she can treat it like a cocoa tree and we will see next spring.
Plant 1 determinately looks like some of the Sacred Bambo pics on the web, this zoom crop of the branch looks pretty good confirmation.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 29th April 2011 11:10am

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Charles cant spell says...
KjW do you have a pic of you Brazilian custard apples branching habit. This tree Plant 1 seems very distinct that is apposing alternating branches.

Time: 29th April 2011 11:12am

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KjW says...
Sorry mate, but my tree is barely big enough to have leaves even, It's only just been planted after the floods.
I've attached a photo, but it's not a good one.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 29th April 2011 11:20am

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KjW says...
Charles, Your questions are just as legitimate as any others.
Seeing that you didn't know that the plants are, This is a good way of finding out..

Time: 29th April 2011 11:36am

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About the Author John42
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amanda says...
Hi Charles - No.1 - it does look like a brazilian custard apple doesn't it KjW? (Rollinia) - I think there is a pic in my edibles page of my one - but I can take some more if u would like?
(it's lost it's leaves lately as I forgot to water it b4 a hot spell...oops)

PS: Is that jaboticaba really growing in Pemberton Charles!? I am amazed - I would have thought it too cold - but it looks pretty good?

Time: 29th April 2011 12:11pm

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About the Author amanda19
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KjW says...
Hi Amanda, It may not be a Brazilian Custard Apple, but it sure looks like some kind of C/apple.

All of my Sacred Bamboo died from being over watered earlier in the year.
Yeah! They didn't like standing in 4ft of water for a week or more....funny that..

Time: 29th April 2011 12:19pm

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About the Author John42
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amanda says...
I found an old pic of my Rollinia...
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 29th April 2011 12:24pm

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About the Author amanda19
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KjW says...
Yep! Going by that pics Amanda, I'd say Charles's Plant 1 is some kind of C/apple.

Time: 29th April 2011 12:29pm

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About the Author John42
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Peter says...
Ok., if it is Pemberton, cocoa is out of the race as this is a ultra-tropical plant and will not survive one single winter. I am aware of people in this forum trying to grow tropical trees in subtropical/temperate areas and I am one of them, but cocoa - no!
Thinking of custard apple (=Atemoya): At the moment I am not convinced with the way the bark looks and I am missing the scar-like appearence on the branches where leaves once were. However, as mentioned, maybe something similar such as Rollina.
On the other hand, we have to stay open for other options besides Annonaceae.
I look forward for your next trip to the place - hopefully I could describe clear enough which detail to look out for.

Time: 29th April 2011 1:02pm

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About the Author Peter36
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snottiegobble says...
Amanda, I had a japoticaba in Sth W Vic.It took 3 years to grow to 50cms so with me coming to WA I never got to see its fate. but it was healthy & protected by other plants.

Time: 29th April 2011 2:07pm

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About the Author snottiegobble
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Jason says...
I was at Glowinski's garden the day he first saw a fruit on his jaboticaba tree in Melbourne. His is a large tree and over 20 years old. I have one just stuffed in the garden and it's not bothered at all by living in Southern Vic without any water or love but it does grow slow

Time: 29th April 2011 4:54pm

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About the Author Jason
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Nick says...
Do the leaves feel like tracing paper (super thin)?

Time: 29th April 2011 6:39pm

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About the Author Nick T
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Andy says...
1. Guava (could be wrong, but I got this confused with a custard apple the other day. Custard apple/Cherimoya leaves look a little fatter and shorted imo)

3. Jaboticaba

2. Don't know it's name, but I have a few around the place. Never bothered to find out what it was called because it is inedible :(

Have attached some pictures of them. One has some berries on it. The other is much taller and no flowers or fruit.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2

Time: 1st May 2011 10:45am

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About the Author DynamicLifter1
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Peter says...
An easy feature to distinguish guava from custard apple is the positioning of the leaves:
Guava has leaves arranged two opposing each other on the same level, whereas custard apples have leaves alternate (next leaf sits further up the branch in a 90 degree angle, 3rd leaf is again in line with the 1st one

Time: 1st May 2011 2:58pm

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About the Author Peter36
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Charles cant spell says...
Assuming this one isn't edible but looking to get it ID'd as its in a backyard and we need to know if its toxic etc.
Can someone identify it please, thanks in advance.
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Picture: 1

Time: 1st July 2011 11:45pm

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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Peter says...
Compund leaves and structure of inflorescense with fruits looks like somethink close to Schefflera. If it is, that these berries are certainly toxic. Let me look through the sources I have.

Time: 2nd July 2011 12:05am

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Charles cant spell says...
Thanks Peter, yes your certainly looking right again as the Schefflera arboricola, Dwarf umbrella plant sure looks like what we saw. Can I provide any closer pics of a part to make a clearer/more certain ID possible?

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Picture: 1

Time: 2nd July 2011 12:30am

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Peter says...
If you know that Schefflera arboricola is readily available in the nursery scene, than this would be the most likely option. I could try to find a description of the species and could ask you if the features match with your tree. I don't know, if I will have something on this species, but just in case have one or two little branches ready (also a flower stem) and press it between newspapers, so we can go back to it at any time.
I assume this is from the Pemberton property. Besides pics I would press also material from all the other unidentified plants and bring it back to Perth. Then you can also bring it to nurseries to check, if they know it. This will speed up your ID process.

Time: 2nd July 2011 11:17am

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Charles cant spell says...
Cheers Peter logical suggestions as always. This is actually on a house block in Padbury, as part of the Permaculture Design Course we are currently running the backyard that was the design and practical implement. So there was some interest as to whether the seed/berry was suitable as part of the chicken diet and consequently the location of the run.

Time: 2nd July 2011 3:58pm

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Jenny says...
Hoping for some advice from you gurus out there! I've always assumed I have the normal (small-leaved) Jaboticaba and am on the lookout for a large-leaf one because I can't help myself! This is a seedling from Tropical Fruit World years ago, which may explain the difference but when I compare leaves with the normal small-leaf Jaboticabas in the nurseries the leaves on my tree seem larger. It has not fruited yet. I don't want to go and buy another one sight-unseen (mail order from Daleys in other words) if I already have one. The longest leaves are 6.5 cm long.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3
Picture: 4

Time: 10th July 2012 10:38am

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Original Post was last edited: 10th July 2012 10:43am

About the Author Jenny
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Mike says...
Jenny,
Jaboticabas are usually misidentified.The small leafed common one is M.jaboticaba var.sabara.The large leafed one is very likely to be M.spirito santensis var.grimal especially if the large fruit have a little fuzz.If you see a very similar large leafed type but with smooth fruit and a wavy leaf edge you can be confident it is M.cauliflora var.paulista.

Time: 10th July 2012 11:23am

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BJ says...
That one is a large leaved. The small leaved ones have leaves 1/3rd the size. I've planted mine virtually in the same hole, so can post a pic of leaves side by side, when I get a few minutes...

Time: 10th July 2012 11:31am

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About the Author Theposterformerlyknownas
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Ken says...
Hi Jenny, My Jaboticaba is about 12 yrs old and the biggest leaves on it are about 40 x 15mm.
So going by that, I'd say your's is the large leaf Jab.
By the way, my Jab is flowering ATM

Cheers
Ken
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Picture: 1

Time: 10th July 2012 11:45am

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Jenny says...
thanks all for your help! It's great to finally know and also that it is the not so common one. waiting for the fruit... So now will be on the lookout for a small-leaf one ;)

Time: 10th July 2012 12:35pm

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Mike says...
As jaboticaba taxonomy enthusiasts will be able to tell you Jenny,they have recently had an identity crisis.As a group they will now be joining the esteemed cambuca in the genus Plinia.

Time: 10th July 2012 12:56pm

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Ken says...
My Jab took 9yrs to fruit Jenny, but it never got any special treatment either

Time: 10th July 2012 1:41pm

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About the Author John42
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Jenny says...
That's pretty major, Mike. Maybe then all the misidentification you mention will be cleared up?

Ken since finding this wonderful forum & learning so much I've been trying to give my previously neglected jaboticaba all the tlc I can, but it's so frustrating as you can see from my pics it still doesn't look all that happy. I gave it a spray of confidor last week since it appears something possibly thrips or spider mites was attacking the new growth. I have been careful not to burn it with fertilizer and always try & give it rainwater except when the tank is dry.

Time: 10th July 2012 5:31pm

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Mike says...
Jenny I have the same 2 jab types and got pics identified by a whizz http://www.freitasmudas.com.br/pesquisar/?link=buscar_mudas&categoria=3&pagina=1&nome=jabuticaba Here is a link to look at a few.
My sabaras fruit all the time and here is some in the pic.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 10th July 2012 6:23pm

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Mike says...
https://www.skyfieldtropical.com/encyclopedia/jaboticaba/
Here is an example of the new genus name in use.
The picture shows my grimal and sabara foliage together.It goes beyond getting the name wrong it is getting the genus and species wrong as well as omitting the variety.It makes it hard for simple folk like me to know what I have.
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Picture: 1

Time: 10th July 2012 6:30pm

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Ken says...
And a Grimal & Sabara are??

Time: 10th July 2012 6:51pm

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Mike says...
Ken I will use their new genus,correct species variety name. They are the large leafed jaboticaba Plinia spirito santensis var.grimal and the common small leafed jaboticaba Plinia jaboticaba var.sabara.

Time: 10th July 2012 9:15pm

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Ken says...
OK, I just call em the big leaf & small leaf Jab

Time: 10th July 2012 9:49pm

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Mike says...
Ken that is good enough as names here won't be corrected any time soon, and all those very good species and varieties won't get here in foreseable decades.

Time: 11th July 2012 7:48am

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Ken says...
OK, When in Australia...blah blah blah.
While we're on the subject of large & small leaf Jaboticaba's, can you tell me what difference there is in the fruit of the 2

Time: 11th July 2012 8:03am

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BJ says...
Big leaf has larger fruit, but usually less of them and crops fewer times per season. Small leaf gets covered in fruit, which is usually smaller and gets 2-4 crops per season. Big leaf also has a slightly thicker skin, but you wouldnt eat it anyways. Small leaf is my prefferred fruit - I find it a touch sweeter - but flavour/taste is subjective.

Time: 11th July 2012 8:30am

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About the Author Theposterformerlyknownas
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Mike says...
The large leafed one has bigger fruit with a little fuzz that are not so black.They only fruit once or twice a year unlike their small leafed cousins.The large leafed fruit is also more complex with a sweet/acid balance that many could find more appealing.

Time: 11th July 2012 8:33am

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Ken says...
OK, Thanks for that BJ & Mike

Time: 11th July 2012 6:03pm

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