Testimonials Shop News Specials Catalogue Contact Forum Blog My Account My Edibles
Kyogle Shop Super Savers
Kyogle Shop Super SaversAdvanced TreesFruit Tree PacksSpring Catalogue is Available Now
Forum Rules | Updates

<< Back to Daleys Fruit Tree Forum

the trouble with permaculture

    88 responses

kert starts with ...
Permaculture enthusiists seem more interested in selling/attending courses than actually growing anything. Go to a permacuture happening and before too long someone will sidle up to you and ask "What courses have you done?" Nonetheless, they appear harmless.
About the Author

sydney
1st May 2011 2:20pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(1) LIKE this Question (0)
People who Like this Answer: b1b2j3
trikus says...
yes I think its a bit of A pyramid marketing scheme ..
About the Author
Trikus
battered Tully
1st May 2011 2:59pm
#UserID: 930
Posts: 747
View All Trikus's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jason says...
I met a guy in 1999? that was into permaculture. I've kept in touch with him since then and I swear he's not stopped country hopping ever since then, pretty much monthly turning up in another country for another course or garden build.

I have no idea how he funds this, if he gets payed to help out with permaculture projects on rich peoples land or what. I don't think he actually owns anything or has his own garden. It's definitely an interesting sub culture but I'm not sure how it works. He's not the only one doing this, there are literally hundreds of people in his little group doing the same
About the Author
Jason
Portland
1st May 2011 4:47pm
#UserID: 637
Posts: 1217
View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
J says...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

It's an interesting read. It was developed scientifically in australia apparently. Kert, you are right, I've been to few permaculture events and I've been asked to enroll in courses.

From the wikipedia link:
Critiques

John Robin has been one the strongest critics of permaculture, criticizing it for its potential to spread environmental weeds, reflecting a divide between native plant advocates and permaculture.[10]

Bill Mollison (one of the founders of modern permaculture) himself has also been critical of itinerant teachers of permaculture who would go on to teach after only a short course. At one point Mollison unsuccessfully attempted to trademark the term permaculture to prevent this practice.[11]

Another criticism of permaculture is to be found in a book review of Hemenway's Gaia's Garden, published in the Whole Earth Review.[12] In it, Williams critiques the view that woods are more highly productive than farmland on the basis of the theory of ecological succession which states that net productivity declines as ecosystems mature[citation needed]. He also criticized the lack of scientifically tested data and questions whether permaculture is applicable to more than a small number of dedicated people.

Hemenway's response in the same magazine disputes Williams's claim on productivity as focusing on climax rather than on maturing forests, citing data from ecologist Robert Whittaker's book Communities and Ecosystems. Hemenway is also critical of Williams's characterisation of permaculture as simply forest gardening.[13]
About the Author
J
uopwey
1st May 2011 6:06pm
#UserID: 2954
Posts: 397
View All J's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 1st May 2011 6:10pm
kert says...
I've read permaculture books and little is said about what causes me the most travail,namely birds and fruit fly. As for productivity ecologists measure biomass rather than human food. To top it off the redoubtable Bill, when he needs fruit or veg. treks to the shops.
About the Author

sydney
1st May 2011 7:02pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (1)
People who Like this Question Peter Sorensen
Dave says...
Interesting to read your experiences with Permaculture and some of those multiple course addicts, yeah they are out there. Today which happens to be Permaculture Day, i went to a course on...just joking...I did a garden tour of a permaculture food forest and its surrounds and i must say it is one of the most diverse, rich, vibrant ...(you get where I'm going) food gardens I've ever seen. It was created by a couple in northern melbourne area on several acres and they invited me to see it today. They use no netting, and little defence against the many local animals except for some higher fencing but they have AMAZING fruit!
Dozens of Tamirillos hanging by the buckets, Babaco (maybe a hundred plants) next to breaking point with the loads of fruit, Sapotes of all kinds, all the usuals too plum, pear, apricot, apple, rambling cape gooseberries, passionfruit, pepino's running amuck, just soo much stuff, everywhere, I think they could call some areas food jungle. The way they used recycled materials and building of soils was incredible, not to mention aquaponics (insane set-up, but he does this commercially), geese to keep the weeds down, chickens for pest control , food and manure...anyway this was permaculture working really well for them.
Bill Mollison's book is a good read, I have put some of his ideas into practice, and so far it seems to be working great for me. i chat to people and do garden tours to get my experience on the complexity of making a food forest ... haven't done any courses ....YET!
The permaculture nuts you meet are just on the surface, the real nuts keep to themselves, build amazing food jungles and do the occasional blog!
About the Author
Dave
Dandenongs
1st May 2011 9:49pm
#UserID: 4019
Posts: 48
View All Dave's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(2) LIKE this Question (0)
People who Like this Answer: Peter Sorensen,Serendipity20002
Brad says...
Agree with you kert, the lack of technique regarding fruit fly and birds jumps out for what I'm doing too.

I've met a few graduates of permaculture design courses who were as good as useless. And I've met people who used their garden as their classroom and textbook who are extremely useful. There are some very good permie teachers who know this. I like the milkwood website for example (and I think they do courses in Sydney). I've no plans to do the courses, but I like to read/talk/view their doings
About the Author
Brad2
G Hill,Perth
2nd May 2011 1:13am
#UserID: 2323
Posts: 762
View All Brad2's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Must say I agree also..(xx kert :) - it's a good topic to discuss. I haven't even got to the birds n F.fly issues, I am still struggling with the soil stuff!?

I am just not convinced that permaculture is the way to go in arid or semi arid zones, for eg. Water is a major player in this system...but - what if u don't have it...? Or it's saline...

My other personal grief with this system is that it is incredibly time consuming if you can't rely on a few "artificial" fertilisers...

Yup - u can use nitrogen fixers and chop off the leaves and branches for fertiliser - but if u don't have rain - they are just dead twigs and leaves on the ground doing nothing...

The only inspiring movies/examples etc, I see on permaculture - are all in that perfect zone where there is min. 1m annual rainfall, no frost, great basalt/volcanic soils etc.. (Byron Bay maybe...?)

I don't know - but also - all of the good 'organic fertilisers' now fetch top dollar (eg: lucerne hay, cow poo, B+Bone et al?) It's not cheap like it used to be.

This sounds very negative I know (sorry) but my oldest gardening-buddy is a 75yr old ex-farmer and he chuckles at my efforts: "Amanda - it's cheaper to buy the organic produce at the shop than grow it yourself - leave it up to the professionals, in the right growing areas, mate..."
I am beginning to think he is right...but would be interested to hear what others input vs output is...?
For me - the exclusion system is the only way to beat the birds n f.fly.. birds are not hard - it's the f.fly really? buggers..
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
2nd May 2011 2:52am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Glad to hear someone has successfully put together a "Food jungle" Maybe they do not have ravenous birds (or in places like Bilpin the farmers have got rid of the birds by spraying fenthion). Our bitds have no problem seeking out fruit in the densest plantings and when you plant close together you cannot easily deploy nets. I like seeing satin bower birds and crimson rosellas but once they home in on a crop you're a gonner.
Amanda, have you tried swales?
About the Author

sydney
2nd May 2011 7:35am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
denise says...
A few years ago I began to have more spare time and began immersion into reading tropical fruit books, coupled with buying plants, seeds etc, and meeting other collecters. I didnt go to any course or meetings but that is just my way. After many months the need for all that effort lessens to just maintaining the skills. It becomes a way of life, I find myself talking to the plants and able to give good advise and decisions much better than before. Perhaps coupled with global warming my plants are growing with better success these days. Often enough when I pick up a book to look up about a plant it will open to the exact page and other such dejavu. The next stage is to upgrade to a lifestyle block as I have a huge collection of fruit plants nearly ready.
About the Author

 
2nd May 2011 7:54am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Dave says...
just check this out:

http://permaculture.org.au/2009/12/11/greening-the-desert-ii-final/

please be patient its 36mins but i think its worth a look. Shows swale use Amanda, this is definitely not in a perfect zone.
About the Author
Dave
Dandenongs
2nd May 2011 8:06am
#UserID: 4019
Posts: 48
View All Dave's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Rastus says...
Amanda, Your old friend is most probably right there.
Like the bloke who bought a $30k boat, He didn't get any cheap fish, but he had a hobby and an interest.
About the Author

 
2nd May 2011 9:36am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
hawkypork says...
I follow a permaculture forum (PRI) and I agree with all gripes aired here.

Nonetheless, most (many? a lot?) of permies are fruit and vege growing maniacs like the people in this forum. So I would say that they have a lot more in common with you than the masses out there who are disconnected with growing food.
About the Author

Fremantle
2nd May 2011 11:57am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kerrt says...
In the beginning I took advice from all over the place and when I read that geese are ideally suited to orchards I was sold . At auction I bought 12 geese and recreated the picture of happy geese and contented farmer that appeared in the permaculture manual.
Big mistake! Geese are some of the meanest beasts in God's creation. They set to ring barking trees ,terrifying the chooks and attemting to maime visiting children. Even when I killed them to eat them they got the better of me. The meat was tough and needed hours of boiling.
Does anyone in permaculture circles field test their advice before publication?
About the Author

sydney
2nd May 2011 1:42pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
If I had more time I would try and shed some light on many of the knowledge gaps here, I am no expert by any means but see some glaring misconceptions, etc. I will be getting my Premaculture introduction in reverse, like most of us here would if we chose that path, it is ofcourse the best way.
Take home message the 12 principles are a good summary of what is essentially logic to a lot of us but not the mainstream.
Fruit fly and birds, yeah nets, there is no easy answer, in an idea world they would not be as imbalanced and problematic, but while we have a rooted ecology there will be alsorts of issues that a pure but small local permacutlre system will not effectively manage.

Lets remember though that Permaculture is a ecological design system, Bill traveled and spoke about and wrote about what he saw and thought about, he certainly doesnt answer all your issues.

Now while I am sure there are some rubbish courses out there and there may be an over supply on the east cost, a number of the post and misconceptions on this forum are a result of a limited reading of some permaculture material, the PDC offers a wide range of introduction and mind opening to a hell of a lot of topics and isssues. You then go away a littel or a lot enlightened and start your own experimentation journey, perhaps saved 10 years or wasted effort on idea that have tried nad failed before etc. To me even after a hell of a lot of living on a small selfstainable acrage, the books and concepts offer lots of new ideas and optimisation tools for me to try. Also in WA at least I like most of the people, they are down to earth, open minded, knowledge seeking, freindly people, something that was hard to find in other circles.
Keep up the discussion, I need to Design a few Urban Permablitz's and set up some PDC course notes :).....say have you guys considered doing a permaculture course....
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
2nd May 2011 3:24pm
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
OK,Charles, given your limited time could you spare a moment to clear up just one of the "knowledge gaps".
About the Author

sydney
2nd May 2011 3:42pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Thanks for the link Dave - will watch later. Yea Rastus - I know ;-) I wouldn't give up my gardening for the world either - but I just seem to be missing something, somewhere a long the line, with permaculture.
I have tried very hard to incorporate all these great ideas - but just don't seem to get ahead here, without vast inputs of time, water and money..?

I visited a permaculture set up in a similar zone etc awhile back - and to be honest - it left me feeling quite depressed :-( It was one of the ugliest and most chaotic gardens I had ever seen - a small point in the scheme of things I guess (unless u live on a suburban block) but nothing was really thriving like I thought it would be? The water usage etc was on a par with my own. The garden was at least 15yrs old.
Dunno - I don't know how to explain it other than I was dissapointed I guess (but maybe I expected too much also)

Swales - my block is flat and there is no run off at all (too sandy) - the most water in any given shower is 30mm - would swales be of any use in this situation?

I am sort of wondering how WA (for eg) is going to cope if it gets any hotter and drier - and if permaculture has any ideas to aid in the recycling of biomass (naturally) in the absence of adequate rainfall (and possibly increasing salinity in water supplies)..? Is there a 'lowest threshold' of rainfall where the system doesn't actually work as well as it should? (maybe I am there already!? eek!)
Might have to come and do your course Charles lol!?
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
2nd May 2011 4:06pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
My opinion only of course but to me permaculture is a design system based on modling your life support systems mimicing natural ecosystems. There is lots of talk but if you look at hte 12 principles they are a handy way of packaging up the thought process required to do this individually for each persons situtation and desire.

Large cut and paste for those that didnt follow the wiki link.

1. Observe and interact - By taking time to engage with nature we can design solutions that suit our particular situation.
2. Catch and store energy - By developing systems that collect resources at peak abundance, we can use them in times of need.
3. Obtain a yield - Ensure that you are getting truly useful rewards as part of the work that you are doing.
4. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback - We need to discourage inappropriate activity to ensure that systems can continue to function well.
5. Use and value renewable resources and services - Make the best use of nature's abundance to reduce our consumptive behaviour and dependence on non-renewable resources.
6. Produce no waste - By valuing and making use of all the resources that are available to us, nothing goes to waste.
7. Design from patterns to details - By stepping back, we can observe patterns in nature and society. These can form the backbone of our designs, with the details filled in as we go.
8. Integrate rather than segregate - By putting the right things in the right place, relationships develop between those things and they work together to support each other.
9. Use small and slow solutions - Small and slow systems are easier to maintain than big ones, making better use of local resources and producing more sustainable outcomes.
10. Use and value diversity - Diversity reduces vulnerability to a variety of threats and takes advantage of the unique nature of the environment in which it resides.
11. Use edges and value the marginal - The interface between things is where the most interesting events take place. These are often the most valuable, diverse and productive elements in the system.
12. Creatively use and respond to change - We can have a positive impact on inevitable change by carefully observing, and then intervening at the right time.

How are they more suited to arid that tropical, or telling people to do specific things. Sure Bill has ideas, Dave has ideas, as does everyone that writes a book and tried to fill it with "useful" info. And yes its easier to live in a zone with 1 m of rain than 20ml, but permaculture is a design system, just one of the ways you can evaluate your situation and desires and design your lifestyle, surrounding and all other aspects to achieve a better result.
You might find a clever local permie doing exactly what you want in your area to copy but otherwise its up to us, trial and error, its one of a number of life design systems, not an answer book or a silver bullet.
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
2nd May 2011 4:43pm
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
ringelstrumpf says...
I read a bit of permaculture books, but the courses are too expensive, I wouldn't spend that money. What I read in the books was useful but not really something new. It's more about putting different organic gardening ideas together. What's new is that they are looking more in the tropics what traditional farmers did there and this is more appropriate for the Australian climate.
The funny thing was I visited home gardens of people who told they are doing permaculture. What they really did is instant gardening. They bought heaps of sugar cane mulch and lucerne etc. and popped seedlings into these raised beds. I didn't see enough veggies to feed a family there and these veggies were extremely expensive anyway.
If you are growing the most exciting fruit which doesn't really fit in your
climate then you don't safe money, but if you plant, say the odd apple then you do. Or strawberries. The best fertilizer is what your neighbours throw away (lawn clippings) or you send your kids picking up animal droppings (less successful).
There is one permaculture idea i love very much it is Huegelculture. Sepp Holzer does this (he's a guy who sells himself very well). But that's hard work, because you dig and most people tie permaculture with no-dig methods together.
About the Author
ringelstrumpf1
Blue Mountains
2nd May 2011 7:01pm
#UserID: 3535
Posts: 148
View All ringelstrumpf1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Julie says...
Interesting thread. I did a PC certificate course with Bill Mollison at Murdoch Uni way back in 1985. Before that I had read Permaculture 1 and 2.

Most of you seem to be confusing PC with organic growing - a common misconception. Bill is not really a gardener, and although he recommends you grow organically, I've heard him say it's OK to use some synthetics to get started.

PC is about design - of your house, garden, pond, orchard etc, and how they all relate to each other. There are a number of principles, which Charles outlines above. He (Charles) seems to understand that it's not about the details, but the bigger picture. Just because someone says eg a tyre pond is a good idea, doesn't mean you have to have one - it's just an idea.

But I have seen people latch onto ideas like this (herb spiral, anyone?) and say they are practising PC. I had a friend who said she had a permaculture garden - she had mulched her beds! Mulch was still a fairly new concept in the 80's, but still!

I don't know what books you have all read, but I still think PC 1 and 2 have a lot of interesting stuff, even though they are in the form of a fairly dry thesis.

PS A friend of mine taught Bill Mollison as a mature age student at the Uni of Tasmania. She said she felt priviledged to have him in her class, as he was such an intelligent sudent.
About the Author
Julie
Roleystone WA
2nd May 2011 8:13pm
#UserID: 154
Posts: 1753
View All Julie's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 2nd May 2011 8:18pm
Dave says...
Nice explaination Charles, my own experience with 'permaculture people' or 'permies' has been really positive so far. I am constantly amazed at what they do with recycled materials, little money and clever techniques to solve many gardening problems. There is one guy in the hills here who has an amazing set-up with 450+ cultivars of apples as part of it, yeah he does courses too hehe...cider making, cheese making, grafting days, etc and has plenty of time for budding amatuers who ask lots of questions like me.
I use lots of techniques from permaculture but also from more mainstreams practices. Everyone wants a different outcome as for myself, and one system does not solve the problem of where I'm heading with the garden plan.
About the Author
Dave
Dandenongs
2nd May 2011 8:22pm
#UserID: 4019
Posts: 48
View All Dave's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
ringelstrumpf says...
Julie, maybe one new thing in permaculture is that Mollison introduced Design procedures in gardening. (Not what usually is called garden design by fancy magazines).
About the Author
ringelstrumpf1
Blue Mountains
2nd May 2011 8:57pm
#UserID: 3535
Posts: 148
View All ringelstrumpf1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Julie - maybe that's where my system has 'failed' - at the design stage. Some more experience may have helped here.

But, if I could be content growing only figs, olives and such, then life would be sweet :) Perhaps it's not very sustainable of me to be attempting to grow marginal species when our water (in Gero,eg) is marginal at best?
(it's now my most expensive input into the garden..at around $4000/yr)
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
2nd May 2011 9:44pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Chris says...
Permaculture = gardening for hippies! Admit it. :)
About the Author
Chris
Sydney
2nd May 2011 10:33pm
#UserID: 2281
Posts: 263
View All Chris 's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jason says...
Amanda I'd be content growing figs alone! I have heaps of fig trees and never got even one single fig to ripen this year. It's just not warm enough in my garden. I keep looking for earlier varieties but haven't been able to find one that's early enough to be reliable yet
About the Author
Jason
Portland
2nd May 2011 11:01pm
#UserID: 637
Posts: 1217
View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
snottiegobble says...
Permaculture is not for everyone, for instance who has the time to stick rigidly to moon plantings? However the cow`s horn fertilisation method is an interesting concept!
About the Author
snottiegobble
Bunbury/Busso(smack in the middle)
3rd May 2011 12:22am
#UserID: 3468
Posts: 1458
View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Dave says...
Snottie those methods are actually from Biodynamics systems originally termed by Rudolf Steiner and is a bit different to permaculture. It is another interesting set of principles and techniques, the horn is very interesting and is said to improve humus formation, Bio's swear by it. But yeah even though biodynamics shares some common themes with permaculture it uses some different practices.
Julie...I read PC 1 and 2 a few times awhile back, and I think a good place to start when designing a sustainable garden for general ideas and design.
About the Author
Dave
Dandenongs
3rd May 2011 12:46am
#UserID: 4019
Posts: 48
View All Dave's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
Snottie, I guess it is a question of where you draw the line, how spiritual you are etc. I am an engineer, I like logic and optimisation. Yet I know that hand diving water works, and it seems like ulter bullshite for example.

But yes you are talking about the more borderline area, moon planting and biodynamics (naturpothy for plants and soil) is not even in the huge Permaculture Designers Manual of concepts, so I doubt Bill is onboard with that either.

personally I can grasp that putting a horn (bloodnbone) stuffed with manure, in the ground in a highly biologically active and pure zone will result in biologically rich shit in a horn after a year, but to then put 1 gram of that in 20 litres of water mix for 1 hour in one direction and then dilute it a hundred times and then put on your garden for magic results...that where the hocus pocus looses me. I would bury 10 horns, make a liquid fert out of each and apply one horns worth to each bed, then I would expect to see real logical benefits.
Anyway please dont tar permies as Organic Exclusive Gardeners and consumers or Biodynmic Hocus Pocus folks, some are but not the majority. I like to think we are 'educated' to be more intelligent, limits aware and realistic. If a farmer near by grows non organic wheat, but does and good job, I am not going to go down the organic shop to buy certified organic wheat imported from USA. If I have an organic garden but I have lots of paper and cardboard waste that is a little contaminated I will still process it in my garden rather than sending it to the tip to get mixed with worse chemicals and concentrated.
I think though all these groups and ideas agree that carbon biomass accumulation is certainly to answer to all of the issues and challenges, I just need to figure out how it deals with fruit flys......and by the way how many permaculture courses have you all done, i know of a good one :P
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
3rd May 2011 2:59am
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
And to Ringlestrumf I agree Huegelculture is very interesting and sensible take on carbon farming and slow realease fertilising and copying natural root decay systems that occure naturally in nature.
Everything Seph does is very intellignent and well thought out for his high alpine cold climate. Hence similary his 'permaculture' is likely much more applicable/copyable for you.
As he often states he did no training and all his systems and design came from a life of observing nad tinkering with nature, his systems are hence suited mainly to his climate, and geography.
Hence Permaculture is in a lot of ways is not new or specifically whats in Bills book, its just paying attention and working hard and interacting consciously with nature.
AS I said David Holmgens 12 Principles can bring this concept to people for whom is does not come naturally, that said if they are not and have not interacted with nature, they will likely miss the point and go off half cocked, as a lot do.

One could say Bill Mollison takes a Western approach telling you what to do and how it should be done as he has seen so much in his travels and thought about all the solutions for so long, whereas David holmgren takes the eastern approach of telling you how you can look at things and understand them to come to your own solutions and answers for your own problems. Both school have their merits, followers, doubters and downfalls.
It is a tool and for the moment I am one of the tools in the permaculture bag :)
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
3rd May 2011 3:15am
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 3rd May 2011 3:21am
Jason says...
Talking about stirring the horn sludge in one direction only, back when I had ocd a little bit (seem to be cured these days) I used to have to lay all the hoses in the garden horizontal east west and not crossing over each other every night before I stopped watering. So I can see where they are coming from, but that's a mental problem not a way to make good fertiliser :P
About the Author
Jason
Portland
3rd May 2011 6:34am
#UserID: 637
Posts: 1217
View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
It seems as if we are hard wired for some sort of religosity and,in the absence of organised religion, various quasi-religous beliefs spring up. It's probably a good thing if directed towards good ends. Permaculture with its "enlightened ones" spreading the "word" (at a cost) is clearly of that linage; certain practices resemble Scientology which troubles me.
About the Author

sydney
3rd May 2011 7:24am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Look, I admit I have a low threshhold for general priniples especially airy pseudo-profundities. I carefully went through an introduction to Permaculture looking for things I could use . After all that I only found the herb spiral worth trying and it is just so-so. Its design gives maximum cover for snails and slugs,incidentally.
Most of the stuff is so general as to be not of use and ,then, where it is specific one is constrained by the block you live on. (How could I possibly arrange for water to enter at the highest point of my block, for instance.?)
About the Author

sydney
3rd May 2011 7:54am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jantina says...
Julie, Dave and CCS know what they are talking about,most other people seem to have either no idea what permaculture is about or have heard or read a bit and misunderstood it. It is not as CCS says,an answer book or a silver bullet. It's a collection of commonsense principles, which if thoughtfully applied can result in system for human living that is largely a closed loop ( ie, not requiring much outside input) kinder to the earth (natural systems) and a productive beautiful place to live.
This does not happen overnight, initially takes a lot of hard work (lessening as the system takes shape)and a thorough understanding of the basic principles and how to apply them to your own situation/circumstances.
Bill Mollison and David Holmgren did not invent most of these principles, they looked at how some societies have managed to have sustainable agricultures and living conditions and translated these into the principals that anyone can study.
No I haven't done any Permaculture courses. I have read a lot about it starting with Permaculture 1 and 2,and I have been to many gardens including David Holmgrens (who by the way gardens under less then ideal circumstances in central Vic)and learned a lot about what (and what not) to do.
John Seymour wrote about many permaculture ideas in the 70's without calling it permaculture. It was just sensible susainable stuff.
We have been working on practical sustainability here for about 7 years and are starting to reap the benefits.
Admittedly I garden in a mild climate with mostly good rainfall (but that is because I understood the principles and have chosen to live here). Besides I'm getting older and want to see a working system after moving house so many times in my life.
Anyone from the forum is welcome to come and have a look at what we have done,we have been open for Sustainable house Day.Just remember that it is a work in progress.
About the Author
Jantina
Mt Gambier
3rd May 2011 8:43am
#UserID: 1351
Posts: 1272
View All Jantina's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Brad says...
I didnt read the initial vibe of this thread as a rejection of permie principles. The reaction might have been less defensive if it was written as:
Wouldn't permaculture be even better if it's practitioners had good solutions for birds and fruit fly? Oh and maybe not push their courses all the time
About the Author
Brad2
G Hill,Perth
3rd May 2011 10:07am
#UserID: 2323
Posts: 762
View All Brad2's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Have you tried Huegelkultur , Ringstumpfel? For fruit trees?
About the Author

sydney
3rd May 2011 10:50am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Well - I don't reject the principles - I have Bill's books too and did as much reading and asking as I could - but it hasn't been anywhere near as instructive as the hard reality of the 'experience' :)))
I think I understand what Jantina, Julie and Charles etc are saying here now, though....you can take what ideas you need, reject others if u like, and even invent your own...at the end of the day the basic principles are there - but our journey to get there may be quite different? (especially given the different challenges we may have..?)

For my situation - it was a load off my mind to see that even local permies are struggling with our climate and sands here in Gero, and still trying to find ways to 'crack' the soil biology problems.. (and lack of it! lol)

There are some serious permies who are doing some good work - eg: Julie Firth (here in Gero) is attempting to 'culture' the natural arid zone soil fungi in order to improve our microbially unbalanced soils. It's a lot of work and expense for her - but I applaud her fore-sightedness here. She may just find what we are all after for our WA sands....

It seems a shame, IMHO, that all the interested parties (eg Ag Depts, scientists, permies etc) can't all put their heads together and share knowledge, skills and resources though. Maybe problems like water repellancy and fruit fly might get solved...

(well - I am off to see what this Huegleculture is!? Sounds fascinating :)

(ps Jantina - I wish I was closer - I would love to visit your garden)
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
3rd May 2011 5:15pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 3rd May 2011 5:20pm
ringelstrumpf says...
I tried Huegelculture, but I never stick to what I'm told and I did the same principle but flat for my vegetable beds and I snipped up the wooden bits. So far it worked very well.
(And I sieved the topsoil to get the stones out!!)
When we stared in this place a year ago I didn't know about Hügelkultur and dug a huge hole, maybe 15 meters long 2.5 meters wide and 60 cm deep. (Aren't I crazy?) Our land is fill and I thought that I can't possibly plant my fruit trees in this stuff. Then I filled the hole with any organic matter I could get along with a lot of twigs (mainly privet). This is not exactly Hügelkultur, but it contains a lot of not very fine wooden stuff. I planted the decidious trees and they doubled in size, that's maybe very normal though.
And now we had a lot of soil left over and did another Hügelbeet, this time I was learned a lot and poor husband shoveled in his Easter holidays and this time it is a real hill. I'm just about to plant this bed so I can't say
anything besides, it creates space. This is pretty obvious, but still, I was astonished. and it creates different climate zones too as you have two sides with different exposure to the sun.
About the Author
ringelstrumpf1
Blue Mountains
3rd May 2011 10:04pm
#UserID: 3535
Posts: 148
View All ringelstrumpf1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Hope it's ok if I waffle on here for a sec...but if I had the money I would love to set up a small-ish high-intensity exclusion orchard (similar to the one shown on the Daleys news..) and put in very low level pop up sprinklers thru' the whole thing (the reason being that they would wet 'all' of the area/soil from the top down - allowing it to 'all' become useful/active for root systems etc - not like drippers and microsprayers, which I find concentrate roots in a small area..?) If u are going to pay that much money to enclose - then every bit should be productive..

I would grow it as a food forest (for sensitive and/or F.Fly prone fruit trees) and have windbreak material over the top (or even 50%, or less, shade cloth) and have useful ground covers (N fixing and moisture preserving) and recycle as much freebie organics as I could get my hands on...I would introduce bob-tail (and other) lizards (frogs?) and guinea fowl and have a hive (like that guy). I would also have my wastewater treatment system/septic leaches or whatever, sub-surface, going in there too.
I would attempt to grow mushrooms, or other fungi, on dead logs etc, in shady areas, and introduce other soil fungi that convert decaying wood.
I might even consider novel ways of introducing warmth when required...via solar panels or such (haven't thought about that much yet..) Maybe even a few deck chairs to lay around in and enjoy the lush greenery and NO bush flies! yay!? ;-)

Ah for the Lotto life!? :)

Geraldton is a mass of huge poly-tunnels for a good reason (and some of WA's best growing soils are located here - believe it or not!? check a soil geography book..) I can honestly see this becoming the norm for food growing in the future (in WA at least) - especially given the market for fruit n veg that's not loaded with chemicals. Meat may even end up being 'grown' in vats (via tissue culture) in 100yrs from now maybe..!? Why not - wild caught seafood is a "luxury" these days...But - water is also just too precious to have it simply evaporating now. It is not 'sustainable' to be watering a garden with water derived from de-sal plants either - I don't feel, anyway..?

Like kert - we all get 'antsy' about certain things - my gripe is water. How can my $ compete with mining companies (for eg) who use drinking water all over their roads just for dust suppression and such? (just an example - not a political statement) There are huge fights going on (here at least) over water resources from the aquifiers - between mining and agriculture (bigger than the escaped GM canola genes currently causing a ruckus here too...)

Long winded guys I know - but my point is that permaculture, organics, gardening science, etc - all need to keep evolving with the rest of the world - we need to keep asking questions and studying (in science and in practice) even good growing land is a precious resource these days. Some of WA's richest growing land is now under subdivisions...meaning that good 'growing land' may be relegated to 'marginal land' (think Wanneroo and the Swan Valley eg..)

Bill M's work is quite old now...has permaculture grown/evolved beyond this yet?

About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
3rd May 2011 10:53pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 3rd May 2011 11:02pm
kert says...
You are under a misconception regarding the need to water the entire root zone.(no offence meant). Israelis have shown that it is equally productive to water 1/3 to 1/4 of that zone. The tree will redistribute the moisture and, by not watering a larger area, there is less weed competition.
About the Author

sydney
4th May 2011 9:29am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Ah....do u mean it will redistribute water so that new roots will grow into dry soil? (or redistribute through the tree itself..?)
Now that I have dug up so many of my trees - I have found that root systems have hardly grown on the dripper-only watered trees (they had 4 x 4L one's around them) Surprised some hadn't blown over actually...
I thought it might be because the water tends not to 'spread out' in sand - rather goes it goes straight down..?

It's interesting that u mention weed competition though - as I find my trees with 'weeds' growing under them - have a lot more worm activity there and the soil stays cooler and moister...(which is a good thing in this climate, I feel)

Sigh! I don't know - it all gets very confusing (for me) sometimes :-O

About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
4th May 2011 9:45am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
The article I saw discussed established trees and made the point of not watering the entire root zone .It also said that in a droght trees make useful adaptations that can be disrupted by watering irregularly ie giving a signal to the tree that the drought is over.I make a point of not watering the entire root zone as the larger area evaporates more quickly.
It is understandable that weedy areas will have more bioligical activity but mulch will probably suffice as well.
You could do worse than reading Israeli research into desert horticulture given your situation.
About the Author

sydney
4th May 2011 10:02am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jantina says...
Hi Amanda, I'd love you to come and visit too, maybe one day!Most of life is a trade off, particularly if you want to be producing your own food and even if you find perfect growing conditions for most of what you want to grow, your family may not want to live there!
Peter Bennett (home grown in Adelaide) has a book about organic growing (written about '78 but all still relevent stuff) and he has a chapter on growing vegies in desert type situations with pictures of what he did with a community. I have loaned my copy to someone (who?) maybe you can get a copy from the library.
Bill Mollison (to my knowledge) went on to collaborate with communities and co-author books on various things to do with edibles, eg one on fermented foods for humans.
David Holmgren has moved on to the bigger picture including sustainable living as resources dwindle in the energy sector.
The principles themselves are timeless but I hear what you say, you want specific help with the sandy soil and water deficiency problems.
There is a very interesting DVD out called Garbage Warrior. It's by an American architech who specializes in building houses in the Mexican (I think )desert from mostly garbage (stuff other people throw away) that are self sufficient in power and water. The water is caught water not from aquifers.
The Americans wouldn't let him build them there so he had to go to Mexico. Very interesting video.
About the Author
Jantina
Mt Gambier
4th May 2011 10:20am
#UserID: 1351
Posts: 1272
View All Jantina's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
That's true about the Israeli info kert - but luckily for me, Jantina - my family want to move south too! :)
I will try to choose the land more carefully next time also...and I won't make the mistake of spreading things out so far that I spend most of time walking to and fro, from the garden shed to the gardens...!? Hindsight is a great teacher lol!

About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
4th May 2011 11:46am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jantina says...
Ah yes,good old hindsight, without it I would have made even more of the same mistakes over and over again!
Amanda one of the things permaculture encourages is starting close to the house eg herb and vegie gardens close to the kitchen door, and then working your way out gradually as these get established
to the things that don't need constant attention. Unfortunately I didn't "get" that myself and made my life harder in the process. Now I have my most commonly used herbs just by the door and it's a snap to get parsley for the soup on a winters night.
About the Author
Jantina
Mt Gambier
4th May 2011 12:08pm
#UserID: 1351
Posts: 1272
View All Jantina's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Brad says...
(off permaculture topic)
I was going to say something similar to kert. Drippers do leave bare patches in poor soil that isn't established. but as long as existing plants are around and the soil not bone dry or pure sand, it will distribute quite nicely

another common misconception is deep watering. You want to fill the shallow depths with as much as it can absorb (edit: not you clay gardeners). The vast majority of tree roots do not go deep for moisture. deep water is wasted water. they might go deep for anchorage and create a baseplate (sometimes these roots then go travelling), but the roots sent out close to the surface do the drinking and feeding. check out a eucalypt the next time the wind blows one over - you'll see. again, the moisture is then distributed through the tree/roots.

(back on design / permaculture)
peter bennets book is very worthwhile. and yes - it covers arid gardens he set up (for/with aboriginal communities if i recall). linda woodrow's book is an easy read that talks about minimising effort through in a permaculture philosophy design. e.g. why walk along a row of vegies, if you can stay in one place and turn? keep your compost near where you use it (less wheelbarrowing), have easy access to dumped loads, the kitchen etc etc
About the Author
Brad2
G Hill,Perth
4th May 2011 1:07pm
#UserID: 2323
Posts: 762
View All Brad2's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 4th May 2011 1:11pm
Peter says...
(off permaculture topic about Brads comment about surface roots)
This is now a good opportunity to ask around about others experience with "training roots to get deeper":
I have seen people installing drainage pipes around the tree (no soil in there). They then water by filling the pipe. I guess what they want to achieve is that more roots grow towards the pipe opening about 1m deep in the ground - away from hot soil temperatures and evaporation. The trees look good. Unfortunately this is set up in hope it works and surface watering is also done - so no way to be sure the pipes have a positive effect. But maybe someone has done it more systematically and can tell about their experiences.
This somehow links to Kerts comment, that it is sufficient to provide only a certain percentage of the root system with water, the rest of the root system will recover and spread during more favourable environment conditions.
About the Author
Peter36
Perth
4th May 2011 2:47pm
#UserID: 5034
Posts: 213
View All Peter36's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
If we where copying natural forrest ecology and growing system we would have huge very deeprooted trees shading the main food crop trees and veg. These trees bring up water from the water table and sweat it out and compost it down in the form of debris. Given our climte is changing I imagine that is some areas maybe greo, even if existing bushland is surviving the may not be susficient rain for it to start from nothing anymore or even expand from existing patches effectively.
So Amanada what you are doing is likely just not practical or possible with any principles or hard work.
Permaculture would advise you to ebfore setting up someone evaluate location, climate, water supplies, slope etc. YOu cant do what ever you want effectively whereever you want. We can creat micro climtes but these are limited by the overall climate and location.
Cold hard truth up there your evaporation rate is likely higher than rainfall 11 out of 12 months of the year. Its more about that than rainfall even, that coupled with arid defunct soil means you just shouldnt attempt to do what you are doing. Your area should perhaps be helped and aided to reestablish itslef as low productivity but sustainable bush.
Sure you are working bloody hard but if we are talking ecological sustainable recycling systems it doesnt sound like any aspect of what you are doing up there fits that bill. Sure effective systems that time and effort to build but you are always building biomas and biology, and after the initial wedge, the ball should roll naturally if slowly if you have a system and a thought process that is going to be sustainable in the long term.
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
4th May 2011 3:11pm
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
I won't try to compete with the spirituality of CCS. my observation of Negev desert horticulture convinced me you can make a buck in 200mm rainfall areas if you are really smart. What's more you can even beat the world and export to Europe at a competetive price.
About the Author

sydney
4th May 2011 3:50pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Rastus says...
Once again Kert, where is your evidence of this.
About the Author

 
4th May 2011 4:21pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Oh, Rats you really are mad at me ,poor pet. Evidence of what? That Israeli produce is everywhere in Europe? ;that I was in the Negev ? That it does not rain in the Negev? I won't respond to you further as I have decided not to get into petty slanging matches. I'm far too high- minded.(And it's clearly a mismatch)
About the Author

sydney
4th May 2011 4:33pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
I dunno - CCS has got a point I can appreciate too though. In this location I guess I have learnt that success might have been more likely/easier, etc, if I had stuck to things that grow the best. Trouble is, like most of us here, I am human and want to be able to grow a lot of those other seductive and tasty things that just don't cope very well in this particular location.
Yes - I could make a lot $ growing figs n asparagus tho' kert! They don't seem to mind it...
Strangely enough - I have put tonnes of biomass into this place - I don't know where it goes? Does anyone else find that their sandy-loam seems to just gobble it all up..?

An arborist said the same thing recently Brad...that the tap root grows rapidly, initially, to anchor the tree only - but then that stops and the roots then spread outwards. Given that Eucalypt and acacia roots seem to spread out forever (!?) it's likely why Acacia is so prevalent here..!?
The permie here recommends having a 'well' around the trees and filling this up, and that's it. Seems to work on the trees I have tried it with...?

I had trouble with breaking away, fully, with traditional garden layouts too..? and also getting my head around how to mix natives and fruit trees together (for a more natural "ecology") - when their water and soil needs are so different...? EG: - the acacia windbreak around the orchard was a nightmare for root invasion into the orchard...that's why I took it out and put a physical one in (and at least it didn't use water!?) But - what other design principle might have worked in this situation, do u think?
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
4th May 2011 4:54pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Rastus says...
Now why would I be mad at you Kert, I simply ask you, as you so often ask of others, to provide some evidence to back your claim. RE: a buck can be made in 200mm rainfall etc.
As per usual, you expect of others but can't/won't do the same your self.
About the Author

 
4th May 2011 5:42pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
snottiegobble says...
Earwigoagen!
About the Author
snottiegobble
Bunbury/Busso(smack in the middle)
4th May 2011 8:02pm
#UserID: 3468
Posts: 1458
View All snottiegobble's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
ringelstrumpf says...
About Amanda's waffle:
It's about resilience as well. If you do this high tech things, then there is lots which can go wrong. All technologies fail sooner or later. If you garden more traditionally, you have failures but in most cases you still have something.
The worst thing about the high tech approach is that all these growers depend on the delivery of something, i.e plastic for their tunnels. If this something doesn't come they won't grow much. The more high tech your approach is the more dependent you are on stuff brought from outside.
Remember always that we are three days away from chaos (this was about a disruption of the delivery chain of our supermarkets).
About the Author
ringelstrumpf1
Blue Mountains
4th May 2011 9:55pm
#UserID: 3535
Posts: 148
View All ringelstrumpf1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Dave says...
Yes those earwigs really are a pest and get into every forum : )
About the Author
Dave
Dandenongs
4th May 2011 9:58pm
#UserID: 4019
Posts: 48
View All Dave's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Charles cant spell says...
Amanda - Acacias grow up there as they are a low rainfall, nitorgen fixing pinoneer species. They are there trying to fix the soil but I imagine they are not managing to take the next step of sucessfully hosting a canopy species.

Again I dont want to sound defeatist, and its the same in Perth but yes unless you have an esablished continous nutrient/mulch/biomass cycling forrest type setup you will be bringing in biomas lossing 90% to the leaching and enviromental harshness and not improving at any speed.

What we would do in Perth is to ramp up the clay levels initially, to hold moisture and build up the soil, then the leaching process slows dramatically, then you can start adding some fine organics and lots of course mulch type organics and hopefully the bugs and trees have enough moisture because of the clay and your watering and they have organic food, and the humus/soil formation and terraforming might even go exponential.

While you have that sand as the soil basis thought you are pushing shit through the soil so to speak.

I am sure Kert is right you could turn a buck, and you know how as you state, appropriate species, as for 200mm rainfall, most of those date and fig farms in the desert are running on ancient aquifers propping up man made oasis's aren't they. Possibly but not really sustainable and not growing there on the rainfall levels.

I love being called spiritual :) as and farm boy and chemical engineer its not something i hear, or feel very often :)
About the Author
Charlesstillcantspell1
Perth Innaloo
5th May 2011 4:02am
#UserID: 2742
Posts: 411
View All Charlesstillcantspell1's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 5th May 2011 4:08am
kert says...
Getting back to the trouble with permaculture, I have two gripes. First, is there mantra to grow green crops which are turned into the soil. Of course this is good but if you need tons of green manure ,as I did, it would take several generations to benefit. And it's a lot of work. Better to get grass cutting contractors to dump and even then it takes tons of material. Second, is the lovely idea(yes,they are big on lovely ideas which is why they mostly don't grow much) that by using nitrogen fixers you can adequately nourish your crop. Again it is the quantitative aspect that's impractical . We grow artificial fruits, selected over generations, that need lots of nutrient. Look at the quantity ,say, an apple farmer uses per hectare of nitrogen; it's massive . As an amateur you would use much less but you could never obtain enough through nitrogen fixing.
About the Author

sydney
5th May 2011 9:40am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Brad says...
Uhoh kert now I'm starting to agree with rastus. Where's your idea that people who preach permaculture don't succeed growing? Evidence of that. I have seen many counterexamples

Same for your unsubstantiated claim biomass nitrofixing can't work enough for modern food crops. The air is 79% nitrogen. smaller legume trees / shrubs can provide heaps : if you have the space adjacent to your fruit trees
About the Author
Brad2
G Hill,Perth
5th May 2011 10:14am
#UserID: 2323
Posts: 762
View All Brad2's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Can you quantify the grams of Nitrogen fixed by any N fixing plant?
About the Author

sydney
5th May 2011 6:40pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Yes - the grams of nitrogen fixed can be quantified, quite easily. Azolla can actually fix a great deal of N. I will check some links and edit this in a bit, to add.
For me, I also think that bulky carbon sources may be pretty handy too...is it lignin I am thinking of? Anyway - the Russians (often touted as the fathers of soil science) know lots about this...

Kert - sometimes it depends on whether folks want a 'trophy' tree or not also...my gist, with permaculture, is that there is always "something" to harvest...it may not be massive amounts (that may go to waste) but enough so that you have fresh food (and variety) every day...(and diversity in what u eat is one of the healthiest ways to eat - ask a dietician)

Permaculture will not feed the world...but that was never it's agenda to start with - nor has it claimed that (as far as I know...?)

Love ya work CCS - you have confirmed exactly what I have been struggling with recently - on a physical and ethical level :)
You are absolutely right - the canopy species doesn't have much of a chance. The bush here is called Rum Jungle...don't ask me why tho' !?

Edit: a great link to read kert:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kV0nirc8MiEJ:aciar.gov.au/files/node/10169/MN136%2520Part%25201.pdf+nitrogen+fixing+plants+quantified&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjLVuAf0HXxiW45vLT4WH7CFrmX3C2nY5NsQwTfq4aMqM1ZSTWHD-I1gG-WTBrtrMZEjtuiSlj_AxN0MMrxV4bqN2xUJVK-sjmh-rXS7XnzXn9E6JmnxroP5_lnThDD9aO05cdy&sig=AHIEtbT5yU7EGrctfrBojr27K1a1JwQgOA

Much of what permaculture draws it's knowledge from seems to be based in very logical (and tested) science at times..? eg: claying of sandy, water repellant soils has been used and known about for many years now - and is a well established agricultural practice (I can provide the proof if required ;)
The permie studying local soil fungi is not novel - the Ag dept is already on to these things - they are looking to bacteria to do this job also.
I think Jantina? mentioned that CSIRO is limited, in it's research, by it's funding sources. The Ag dept's are mainly dealing with commercial aspects of food production.

I guess this is why I am very passionate about all of the 'disciplines' coming together - I am convinced this is the way to go. CCS is a chemical engineer - he has knowledge I could never learn. Many of you have amazing practical knowledge and hands-on experience of the vagaries of 'growing'. I am/was a keen microbiologist. Who/what else do we have here? A huge resource - that's what..

(PPS Ringlestrumpf - love your point there :) and Brad - u are a mystery man here..? U make very salient/commonsense points..do u work at the Ag dept or something?)
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
5th May 2011 7:13pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 5th May 2011 9:16pm
ringelstrumpf says...
I like reading the permie books because of the nice illustrations...
For me permaculture is that Mollison had put different organic traditions together and, for the first time in the Western world included "exotic" - mostly tropical farming practices. What strikes me most is that he applies strategies, which are used in design and planning to agriculture. Most of what he writes is just common sense, like water flows downwards - make swale - water goes in soil, still I wouldn't have figured it out. But it is the way he addresses problems in agriculture, that you have to look what is there etc, this is what usually a designer, architect or engineer does.
About the Author
ringelstrumpf1
Blue Mountains
5th May 2011 10:56pm
#UserID: 3535
Posts: 148
View All ringelstrumpf1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Well...to look at things from another perspective completely...world food production is not able to meet demand. Australia actually plays a large role in "feeding the world"...weather conditions of late have proven just how fragile that food chain is. If u and I are finding food expensive lately - then there are many much worse off than us I am sure.

Personally, I find TV shows like Backyard Blitz etc - very scary in the way that they promote sterile, "no/low maintenance" (and non productive) use of land and water. Just my thoughts tho'.

About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
6th May 2011 2:46am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jantina says...
Ha ha Amanda, I call it Backyard Buggerup!It would be interesting to see what some of those backyards look like a few years down the track. My garden may be a jungle at times but if the supermarket system closed today we could go on feeding ourselves.
About the Author
Jantina
Mt Gambier
6th May 2011 10:11am
#UserID: 1351
Posts: 1272
View All Jantina's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
it is commonly misconceived that food is cheap in Oz; it ain't so . Food was better quality in the EU and cheaper. No recent experience for the USA but years ago I thought the same about their food. Having a supermarket duopoly does not help.
About the Author

sydney
6th May 2011 2:00pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Yea - my cousins EU students say that fresh food is very expensive here. Recently a friend saw Aust navels in US for 62 cents/pound...(they were $4.95/kilo here at the same time...) don't know how that works..??

(apologies for sliding off topic...) :)

I wonder how those gardens will look too Jantina...they send shivers up my garden-loving spine..!
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
6th May 2011 4:23pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Julie says...
Sorry, still off-topic on the price of food: I treated myself to ONE banana the other day. It cost me $2.45! I know it's the floods, but still a shock.
About the Author
Julie
Roleystone WA
6th May 2011 7:11pm
#UserID: 154
Posts: 1753
View All Julie's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jason says...
I bought one the other day and it was near to $4 :)! 20$ a kilo I think. Sooner they let imported bananas in from reliable growers the better for me :D.

I'm not sure if I'm into permaculture or not, I do use a lot of weeds and sticks and burying things in the ground and my garden is kinda of starting to be a bit jungle-ish but I've never read any books about permaculture so it's just Jasonculture :D
About the Author
Jason
Portland
7th May 2011 12:17am
#UserID: 637
Posts: 1217
View All Jason's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
MaryT says...
Permaculture is just a brand name. I tend to shop generic - sometimes those products are superior. The main benefit of being a Permie is being able to call yourself one, so many do. I have done all the courses and have not found one thing that is unique in their methods, no different from the generic wisdom. I would have done better to ask my grandfather, if he was alive. However, if you are starting from zero, then you may benefit in doing a course; or log on to this forum.
About the Author
MaryT
Sydney
7th May 2011 5:32am
#UserID: 5412
Posts: 2066
View All MaryT's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Jantina says...
If the courses (I've never done one) were of no value to you MaryT , why did you keep going back to do more? (not having a go, just interested).
About the Author
Jantina
Mt Gambier
7th May 2011 9:42am
#UserID: 1351
Posts: 1272
View All Jantina's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
I just got the Water Corp brochure and the WA statistics in it were pretty scary..? until 1974 there was an average of 338 gigs litres going into our dams - now it's just 57.7 gL ...and in 2010 only 13 gL...ouch!

One of my favourite angles in permaculture is the 'chop and drop' one...it makes sense but it's also so labour saving too...!? It's sad to see people burning all their autumn leaves - or carting green waste to the tip (and then replacing that biomass with just fertilisers, in some cases)
Being bound to english-style gardens has not really done Aust many favours has it? :-( I don't know if I could handle being a neat-freak in my garden - seems like an incredibly time consuming and counterproductive way to go?
I am very keen to build myself a bio-char thingo - for the branches that I can't mulch etc.
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
7th May 2011 11:47am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Not just the price but the quality of food in Holland was astonishing. Especially noteworthy were the apple orchards ,tended to perfection and entirely espaliered. I think each apple was individually turned to face the sun. Thoughtfully, the orchardists had arranged for some apples to be within reach of passing Australian cyclists.
About the Author

sydney
7th May 2011 1:19pm
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
MaryT says...
Jantina I am interested in growing food and growing up in a concrete jungle (Hong Kong) did not prepare me well so I first did a home gardener's course at TAFE, then studied organic gardening, no dig, permaculture, then biodynamics. I am not saying they don't work, but I worked hard at learning by reading and doing and finding facts so yes, like someone else said, I found that a lot of Permaculture stuff is general, basic and have been said before. So it is repackaged stuff but not unique or worthless in itself. That's why I said if someone knows nothing it's worth doing a course, as I did. When I did Permaculture there was a bit of cult feeling to it and I must say I found it off putting. I distrust Gurus. For the same reason I left a school of yoga - I still practice yoga but was uncomfortable about kowtowing to a guru. Again, yoga is ancient and there are many brands...
About the Author
MaryT
Sydney
7th May 2011 6:29pm
#UserID: 5412
Posts: 2066
View All MaryT's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Julie says...
Mary, the 'guru' aspect comes from the students, not the teacher.

Permaculture IS a collection of repackaged stuff, in a way, ideas from all over the world. I don't think I ever heard Bill M say anything was his idea. But he was smart enough to observe what different cultures were doing and put it all together. You say your grandfather could have told you that, but isn't that the point? That we are losing all this valuable information?

I would never have known a lot of things if I hadn't stumbled across it, and it certainly teaches you to look at things in a new way. If a course doesn't do that for you, it hasn't been successful. Maybe not a very good teacher?

Like you, I don't like the guru worship thing, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!




About the Author
Julie
Roleystone WA
7th May 2011 7:46pm
#UserID: 154
Posts: 1753
View All Julie's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 7th May 2011 7:51pm
amanda says...
Julie - we do seem to be losing a lot of information don't we..? Back when my folks were young everybody grew backyard food...they had to, but also, it seemed to be just a normal way of life also..? (mind u - so was the 1/4 acre block too..)
Many of the younger generation don't even know what some of the fruit n veg are it seems? (when I go thru the checkout) - let alone have any confidence to grow them (yet..) I wonder if it may be a dying art - given space, time and water restrictions..? There are some very different challenges these days.

I don't have much experience with permaculture - so I could be wrong - but the impression I get is of treating your garden as a "whole organism". It's very much what made me think when it came to setting this garden up. It's not perfect but that would be unrealistic. And some things are outside my direct control like CCS mentioned - the overall weather and climate - F.fly etc - without some serious money being spent on an exclusion set-up (here at least) as there are no other answers as yet.

But I see some positive signs of some of the permaculture ethos filtering thru eg: people seem to be less inclined to 'wholesale' kill the beneficial insects these days (we have hornet mud nests all around our patio and it's ok - they don't bother us and we don't bother them - and they are great at caterpiller control)
People are more interested in plants that attract 'bennies' also.

Just one small example - I'd bet there's more?
The real challenge for permaculture may fitting/adapting it into modern suburban life...and I am sceptical that it can be done in a postage stamp size backyard..?

Maybe the 'whole organism' should now refer to our whole neighbourhood instead.?
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
8th May 2011 12:44pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Julie says...
amanda, re the 'postage stamp sized backyard'. It would certainly be difficult to grow much in the way of food, though even then, it's surprising what you can do in containers (I know from experience!). And you can be selective in your use of plants.

But a small block has a house on it, and you can use some permie principles there - though nowadays we would probably just call it all 'sustainability', a word that wasn't much in use when PC was started.Many of the ideas have moved into mainstream thinking without being labelled as such. This all started way back in the 80's, and it's easy to forget how far we have come.

Organic growing is actually only a small part of PC, and not discussed much in the original books. So it is up to organic growers to find ways to deal with birds and fruitfly. Though I do remember a case where a guy had guinea pigs running around as 'bait' to attract predator birds (what's the proper name?), as he had a problem with parrots. They did have shelters they could run to. Just another example of looking at a problem 'outside the box' that Bill talkd about.

About the Author
Julie
Roleystone WA
8th May 2011 2:48pm
#UserID: 154
Posts: 1753
View All Julie's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 8th May 2011 2:56pm
amanda says...
True Julie - I guess gardens will end up going more vertical over time? Some of those super 66 and asbestos fences in Perth could benefit from a make over/cover over!? :)
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
9th May 2011 9:16am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
MaryT says...
Julie I take your point that Permaculture is a collection of wisdom and some teachers are not good teachers. What you said about how you look at things is spot on; that's what it's all about for me.

I 'garden' in a car space which is also the entrance to the front door so it is intensive and requires its own school of thought. I find that container growing can be productive and satisfying but I would starve if I need to grow my own supply of food. That's why I grow fruit trees - they grow vertical. The citrus supply me with jam and the herbs are available all year round. In fact my neighbours know to come here for herbs and their children read the labels and learn the name of plants.
About the Author
MaryT
Sydney
9th May 2011 9:54am
#UserID: 5412
Posts: 2066
View All MaryT's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
"Those that can do,those that can't teach"
About the Author

sydney
9th May 2011 11:23am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
kert: Cynicism is humor in ill health.
(H. G. Wells)


About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
10th May 2011 12:48am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
kert says...
Those who reach out to quotations from others to bolster their position only diminish themselves. (Kert della Kert , 2011)
About the Author

sydney
10th May 2011 9:04am
#UserID: 0
Posts:
View All 's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | Edit | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Hey Brad - I was interested in the post you made about more shallow watering..? (on sands) this would be done more frequently also? (eg instead of an hour once a week it would be 1/2hr twice a week)
I practice deep soaking - mainly because it is what I was lead to believe this was the way to go (but also because of salt issues..) but it also drains away very fast in most sands too...so maybe all I have been doing is wasting water, in the long run..?
It would be really interesting to know how deep the roots we want to target actually go, and how much watering time it takes to reach them, in sands...(I am thinking of that trick using cans to measure 10mm of water via sprinklers - for watering lawns..and that's how much a lawn needs?) I wonder if there is somethign similar for trees with microsprayers or such.
Or do people just use the daily evaporation rates from the BOM?

I think I will have a go with more shallow watering and see what happens...
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
10th May 2011 4:51pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Brad says...
you probably want more expert local advice. The only reason I can think of to water past the fine roots (that do the drinking) is if there's water table/salinity issues and an occasional flush is helpful. but yes, its 'wasted'

if your sand won't hold water, then every time the tree gets thirsty, you need to provide some. humus rich soils need less watering. evaporation rates from BOM aren't good enough. you have microclimates (e.g. west or east side of a hill? west side gets afternoon sun more intensely) and soils too. shade from other plants. wind exposure. your own observations are more useful. you may recall a thread where jimmy talked about more regularly watering his pots with smaller amounts, rather than let water soak out the bottom. its the same idea.

and remember, drippers are only good if roots are in the area.
About the Author
Brad2
G Hill,Perth
10th May 2011 7:34pm
#UserID: 2323
Posts: 762
View All Brad2's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Original Post was last edited: 10th May 2011 7:35pm
amanda says...
thanks Brad - yes - Jimmy used a tensiometer, was it? Maybe something like this is the way to go...
I cut the retic to my eastern windbreak, to save water, and on this line are 2 mangoes and a mulberry tree that I wasn't too worried about keeping. I am amazed as they are still going and they haven't been watered for over 6 months now :-O (not flourishing - but nowhere near dead either) we have only had 50mm of rain YTD.

Anyway - this has been a really interesting thread..thanks to kert for starting it and for everyones comments - I hope I can do things better/differently in my next patch :)
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
11th May 2011 9:05am
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
U know - it's interesting this concept of not watering the entire root zone around the tree...I am not sure I am happy with it actually?
Mainly because summer comes along and the new foraging roots will die, in the then dry soil. For trees producing fruit crops this loss of feeding roots (in production time) would surely be quite significant..? (in sandy-loams)

The aim of the game is to get a good healthy mass of feeding roots (and soil) - to support the fruit I would have thought?

Anyway - I have tried both here (sandy loam tho') and can say with 100% certainty that drippers are nowhere near as effective as microsprayers...in sandy loam...even the 'moat' method produces better results. Hand watering seems to be best of all...but who has the time...

Sub surface retic has certainly helped my fruit trees thru' some pretty serious heatwaves. Might be useful as a 'back-up' system when 38+ oC forecast for days/weeks on end perhaps..? It doesn't take much water at all - sub surface - to heat-wave "proof" your trees. I know from our home-usage, spread over >300 sqm - it's low.

Kert - it's interesting to note that there is a local expert who has actually worked in countries like Israel who uses microsprayers - not drippers - I saw. Personally I don't see the point of using only a 1/4 or more, of the soils bounty? (and also when I have paid out lotsa bucks on fert's all around too..?) Potassium is also in the top-soil, for eg. In sand - I am very sceptical of drippers now.

I will take some pics this week of my Rottnest Island T-trees - dripper versus moat watered (the dedicated moat watered trees have not been watered for 2yrs+ now - the dripper-watered one's are still need summer 'weaning'....are still smaller even now @ 4yrs old each, and have a 30% higher mortality rate..) It's very interesting.

I have also noticed that my trees that have a groundcover around them - fare better than those with nothing and/or 'dead' mulch. I have measured the temp of the soil of both - and the soil temp of those with a living ground cover is (statistically-significantly) cooler than either woodchip/straw mulch, or nothing.
That is not surprising tho' - when u think about it. It's always cooler under dense green transpiring shade...it's also good conditions for the soil microorganisms.
Rev also mentioned that there is more than enough fert's given to our fruit trees to support a living ground cover too. I tend to agree. If it's an N2 fixer - even better.
I have experimented with every kind of mulch there is, for sandy loam, and retic methods too.
Haven't quite come to a conclusion yet - but I am becoming sceptical of the popular conventions myself ;-)

(This all relates to larger backyards and lots of trees BTW..)

Anyway - I am with Speedy here - the soil fungi are very important in the big picture - and very much ignored it seems.
About the Author
amanda19
Gerladton. Mid West WA
15th May 2011 11:36pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
Polly says...
From memory there was some research done 10-15 years ago in Australia on watering grape vines - alternate sides on alternate weeks and that was supposed to have been effective.

I'm working away from home so have not been able to check the details but it could probably be googled. I've never tried it myself as I only have a trees in pots.
About the Author
Polly
Newcastle
17th May 2011 7:46pm
#UserID: 1702
Posts: 23
View All Polly's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
amanda says...
Well - we have now had 20mm of rain last 2 days so I checked the depth of infiltration around my trees with the shade cloth (on the ground) and the water had gone about 3cm deeper than the trees without the shade cloth (only 1cm depth) The water didn't penetrate more than 0.5cm on the trees with the pig poo/straw mulch.
The soil under the wood chipped/manure trees is still highly water repellant.

Anyway - just for interest for hot, dry, sandy climates maybe...
I am thinking of a combination of mulch (thin) and shade cloth on top, with microsprayers (and topping up the mulch as needed/broken down over summer) or just using liquid fert's and/or dynamic lifter over summer.
(Until I win Lotto and can afford my exclusion orchard of course! :)
About the Author
amanda19
Geraldton, Mid West WA
17th May 2011 8:42pm
#UserID: 2309
Posts: 4607
View All amanda19's Edible Fruit Trees

Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
farmer_liz says...
you need to check out what has been done in Israel using permaculture, I think they would have similar water issues.

http://ecolocalizer.com/2009/11/14/turning-desert-into-a-garden/

I think the point of permaculture is to understand the principles and work out how to apply them to your individual situation, not everything will work in every place and not every solution has been published, creativity is required!
About the Author
farmerliz1
Nanango
19th May 2012 2:33pm
#UserID: 6957
Posts: 1
View All farmerliz1's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
AdamBau says...
I agree that most permaculture enthusists are prone to marketing courses but what about for those of us who actually want to learn permaculture? I live in Australia and was so thankful I got to take this fermentation workshop https://www.milkwood.net/course/fermentation-workshop-160131/ with people who really knew their stuff, "pros" as they say...

Ya gotta start somewhere...and before you know it, you won't need to take those courses, you might even have to teach them!
About the Author
AdamBau
NSW
7th January 2016 4:58am
#UserID: 13021
Posts: 1
View All AdamBau's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)
mockingjanthony says...
my issue with it, is its pretty much poor peoples techniques appropriated, and poor people continue to be criminalized, fined and land taken away, even children taken away, for what rich people call and profit off of as permaculture practices. using trash and recycled materials, ugly and/or lazy practices that others do out of necessity. if permaculture wants any credence they need to defend poor peoples access to lands, and rights to produce food in unorthodox ways.
About the Author
mockingjanthony
what?
11th October 2017 1:01pm
#UserID: 17031
Posts: 1
View All mockingjanthony's Edible Fruit Trees
Reply | | Remember to LIKE this Answer(0) LIKE this Question (0)

REPLY to this forum

Email: Password:
display Name: Suburb:  
Pictures: Add Another Picture
Body:
 
Remember to include a picture if possible

<< Back to Daleys Fruit Tree Forum