the trouble with permaculture

trikus says...
yes I think its a bit of A pyramid marketing scheme ..

J says...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

It's an interesting read. It was developed scientifically in australia apparently. Kert, you are right, I've been to few permaculture events and I've been asked to enroll in courses.

From the wikipedia link:
Critiques

John Robin has been one the strongest critics of permaculture, criticizing it for its potential to spread environmental weeds, reflecting a divide between native plant advocates and permaculture.[10]

Bill Mollison (one of the founders of modern permaculture) himself has also been critical of itinerant teachers of permaculture who would go on to teach after only a short course. At one point Mollison unsuccessfully attempted to trademark the term permaculture to prevent this practice.[11]

Another criticism of permaculture is to be found in a book review of Hemenway's Gaia's Garden, published in the Whole Earth Review.[12] In it, Williams critiques the view that woods are more highly productive than farmland on the basis of the theory of ecological succession which states that net productivity declines as ecosystems mature[citation needed]. He also criticized the lack of scientifically tested data and questions whether permaculture is applicable to more than a small number of dedicated people.

Hemenway's response in the same magazine disputes Williams's claim on productivity as focusing on climax rather than on maturing forests, citing data from ecologist Robert Whittaker's book Communities and Ecosystems. Hemenway is also critical of Williams's characterisation of permaculture as simply forest gardening.[13]

Dave says...
Interesting to read your experiences with Permaculture and some of those multiple course addicts, yeah they are out there. Today which happens to be Permaculture Day, i went to a course on...just joking...I did a garden tour of a permaculture food forest and its surrounds and i must say it is one of the most diverse, rich, vibrant ...(you get where I'm going) food gardens I've ever seen. It was created by a couple in northern melbourne area on several acres and they invited me to see it today. They use no netting, and little defence against the many local animals except for some higher fencing but they have AMAZING fruit!
Dozens of Tamirillos hanging by the buckets, Babaco (maybe a hundred plants) next to breaking point with the loads of fruit, Sapotes of all kinds, all the usuals too plum, pear, apricot, apple, rambling cape gooseberries, passionfruit, pepino's running amuck, just soo much stuff, everywhere, I think they could call some areas food jungle. The way they used recycled materials and building of soils was incredible, not to mention aquaponics (insane set-up, but he does this commercially), geese to keep the weeds down, chickens for pest control , food and manure...anyway this was permaculture working really well for them.
Bill Mollison's book is a good read, I have put some of his ideas into practice, and so far it seems to be working great for me. i chat to people and do garden tours to get my experience on the complexity of making a food forest ... haven't done any courses ....YET!
The permaculture nuts you meet are just on the surface, the real nuts keep to themselves, build amazing food jungles and do the occasional blog!

amanda says...
Must say I agree also..(xx kert :) - it's a good topic to discuss. I haven't even got to the birds n F.fly issues, I am still struggling with the soil stuff!?

I am just not convinced that permaculture is the way to go in arid or semi arid zones, for eg. Water is a major player in this system...but - what if u don't have it...? Or it's saline...

My other personal grief with this system is that it is incredibly time consuming if you can't rely on a few "artificial" fertilisers...

Yup - u can use nitrogen fixers and chop off the leaves and branches for fertiliser - but if u don't have rain - they are just dead twigs and leaves on the ground doing nothing...

The only inspiring movies/examples etc, I see on permaculture - are all in that perfect zone where there is min. 1m annual rainfall, no frost, great basalt/volcanic soils etc.. (Byron Bay maybe...?)

I don't know - but also - all of the good 'organic fertilisers' now fetch top dollar (eg: lucerne hay, cow poo, B+Bone et al?) It's not cheap like it used to be.

This sounds very negative I know (sorry) but my oldest gardening-buddy is a 75yr old ex-farmer and he chuckles at my efforts: "Amanda - it's cheaper to buy the organic produce at the shop than grow it yourself - leave it up to the professionals, in the right growing areas, mate..."
I am beginning to think he is right...but would be interested to hear what others input vs output is...?
For me - the exclusion system is the only way to beat the birds n f.fly.. birds are not hard - it's the f.fly really? buggers..

denise says...
A few years ago I began to have more spare time and began immersion into reading tropical fruit books, coupled with buying plants, seeds etc, and meeting other collecters. I didnt go to any course or meetings but that is just my way. After many months the need for all that effort lessens to just maintaining the skills. It becomes a way of life, I find myself talking to the plants and able to give good advise and decisions much better than before. Perhaps coupled with global warming my plants are growing with better success these days. Often enough when I pick up a book to look up about a plant it will open to the exact page and other such dejavu. The next stage is to upgrade to a lifestyle block as I have a huge collection of fruit plants nearly ready.

Rastus says...
Amanda, Your old friend is most probably right there.
Like the bloke who bought a $30k boat, He didn't get any cheap fish, but he had a hobby and an interest.

kerrt says...
In the beginning I took advice from all over the place and when I read that geese are ideally suited to orchards I was sold . At auction I bought 12 geese and recreated the picture of happy geese and contented farmer that appeared in the permaculture manual.
Big mistake! Geese are some of the meanest beasts in God's creation. They set to ring barking trees ,terrifying the chooks and attemting to maime visiting children. Even when I killed them to eat them they got the better of me. The meat was tough and needed hours of boiling.
Does anyone in permaculture circles field test their advice before publication?

kert says...
OK,Charles, given your limited time could you spare a moment to clear up just one of the "knowledge gaps".

Charles cant spell says...
My opinion only of course but to me permaculture is a design system based on modling your life support systems mimicing natural ecosystems. There is lots of talk but if you look at hte 12 principles they are a handy way of packaging up the thought process required to do this individually for each persons situtation and desire.

Large cut and paste for those that didnt follow the wiki link.

1. Observe and interact - By taking time to engage with nature we can design solutions that suit our particular situation.
2. Catch and store energy - By developing systems that collect resources at peak abundance, we can use them in times of need.
3. Obtain a yield - Ensure that you are getting truly useful rewards as part of the work that you are doing.
4. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback - We need to discourage inappropriate activity to ensure that systems can continue to function well.
5. Use and value renewable resources and services - Make the best use of nature's abundance to reduce our consumptive behaviour and dependence on non-renewable resources.
6. Produce no waste - By valuing and making use of all the resources that are available to us, nothing goes to waste.
7. Design from patterns to details - By stepping back, we can observe patterns in nature and society. These can form the backbone of our designs, with the details filled in as we go.
8. Integrate rather than segregate - By putting the right things in the right place, relationships develop between those things and they work together to support each other.
9. Use small and slow solutions - Small and slow systems are easier to maintain than big ones, making better use of local resources and producing more sustainable outcomes.
10. Use and value diversity - Diversity reduces vulnerability to a variety of threats and takes advantage of the unique nature of the environment in which it resides.
11. Use edges and value the marginal - The interface between things is where the most interesting events take place. These are often the most valuable, diverse and productive elements in the system.
12. Creatively use and respond to change - We can have a positive impact on inevitable change by carefully observing, and then intervening at the right time.

How are they more suited to arid that tropical, or telling people to do specific things. Sure Bill has ideas, Dave has ideas, as does everyone that writes a book and tried to fill it with "useful" info. And yes its easier to live in a zone with 1 m of rain than 20ml, but permaculture is a design system, just one of the ways you can evaluate your situation and desires and design your lifestyle, surrounding and all other aspects to achieve a better result.
You might find a clever local permie doing exactly what you want in your area to copy but otherwise its up to us, trial and error, its one of a number of life design systems, not an answer book or a silver bullet.

Julie says...
Interesting thread. I did a PC certificate course with Bill Mollison at Murdoch Uni way back in 1985. Before that I had read Permaculture 1 and 2.

Most of you seem to be confusing PC with organic growing - a common misconception. Bill is not really a gardener, and although he recommends you grow organically, I've heard him say it's OK to use some synthetics to get started.

PC is about design - of your house, garden, pond, orchard etc, and how they all relate to each other. There are a number of principles, which Charles outlines above. He (Charles) seems to understand that it's not about the details, but the bigger picture. Just because someone says eg a tyre pond is a good idea, doesn't mean you have to have one - it's just an idea.

But I have seen people latch onto ideas like this (herb spiral, anyone?) and say they are practising PC. I had a friend who said she had a permaculture garden - she had mulched her beds! Mulch was still a fairly new concept in the 80's, but still!

I don't know what books you have all read, but I still think PC 1 and 2 have a lot of interesting stuff, even though they are in the form of a fairly dry thesis.

PS A friend of mine taught Bill Mollison as a mature age student at the Uni of Tasmania. She said she felt priviledged to have him in her class, as he was such an intelligent sudent.

ringelstrumpf says...
Julie, maybe one new thing in permaculture is that Mollison introduced Design procedures in gardening. (Not what usually is called garden design by fancy magazines).

Chris says...
Permaculture = gardening for hippies! Admit it. :)

snottiegobble says...
Permaculture is not for everyone, for instance who has the time to stick rigidly to moon plantings? However the cow`s horn fertilisation method is an interesting concept!

Charles cant spell says...
Snottie, I guess it is a question of where you draw the line, how spiritual you are etc. I am an engineer, I like logic and optimisation. Yet I know that hand diving water works, and it seems like ulter bullshite for example.

But yes you are talking about the more borderline area, moon planting and biodynamics (naturpothy for plants and soil) is not even in the huge Permaculture Designers Manual of concepts, so I doubt Bill is onboard with that either.

personally I can grasp that putting a horn (bloodnbone) stuffed with manure, in the ground in a highly biologically active and pure zone will result in biologically rich shit in a horn after a year, but to then put 1 gram of that in 20 litres of water mix for 1 hour in one direction and then dilute it a hundred times and then put on your garden for magic results...that where the hocus pocus looses me. I would bury 10 horns, make a liquid fert out of each and apply one horns worth to each bed, then I would expect to see real logical benefits.
Anyway please dont tar permies as Organic Exclusive Gardeners and consumers or Biodynmic Hocus Pocus folks, some are but not the majority. I like to think we are 'educated' to be more intelligent, limits aware and realistic. If a farmer near by grows non organic wheat, but does and good job, I am not going to go down the organic shop to buy certified organic wheat imported from USA. If I have an organic garden but I have lots of paper and cardboard waste that is a little contaminated I will still process it in my garden rather than sending it to the tip to get mixed with worse chemicals and concentrated.
I think though all these groups and ideas agree that carbon biomass accumulation is certainly to answer to all of the issues and challenges, I just need to figure out how it deals with fruit flys......and by the way how many permaculture courses have you all done, i know of a good one :P

Jason says...
Talking about stirring the horn sludge in one direction only, back when I had ocd a little bit (seem to be cured these days) I used to have to lay all the hoses in the garden horizontal east west and not crossing over each other every night before I stopped watering. So I can see where they are coming from, but that's a mental problem not a way to make good fertiliser :P

kert says...
Look, I admit I have a low threshhold for general priniples especially airy pseudo-profundities. I carefully went through an introduction to Permaculture looking for things I could use . After all that I only found the herb spiral worth trying and it is just so-so. Its design gives maximum cover for snails and slugs,incidentally.
Most of the stuff is so general as to be not of use and ,then, where it is specific one is constrained by the block you live on. (How could I possibly arrange for water to enter at the highest point of my block, for instance.?)

Brad says...
I didnt read the initial vibe of this thread as a rejection of permie principles. The reaction might have been less defensive if it was written as:
Wouldn't permaculture be even better if it's practitioners had good solutions for birds and fruit fly? Oh and maybe not push their courses all the time

amanda says...
Well - I don't reject the principles - I have Bill's books too and did as much reading and asking as I could - but it hasn't been anywhere near as instructive as the hard reality of the 'experience' :)))
I think I understand what Jantina, Julie and Charles etc are saying here now, though....you can take what ideas you need, reject others if u like, and even invent your own...at the end of the day the basic principles are there - but our journey to get there may be quite different? (especially given the different challenges we may have..?)

For my situation - it was a load off my mind to see that even local permies are struggling with our climate and sands here in Gero, and still trying to find ways to 'crack' the soil biology problems.. (and lack of it! lol)

There are some serious permies who are doing some good work - eg: Julie Firth (here in Gero) is attempting to 'culture' the natural arid zone soil fungi in order to improve our microbially unbalanced soils. It's a lot of work and expense for her - but I applaud her fore-sightedness here. She may just find what we are all after for our WA sands....

It seems a shame, IMHO, that all the interested parties (eg Ag Depts, scientists, permies etc) can't all put their heads together and share knowledge, skills and resources though. Maybe problems like water repellancy and fruit fly might get solved...

(well - I am off to see what this Huegleculture is!? Sounds fascinating :)

(ps Jantina - I wish I was closer - I would love to visit your garden)

amanda says...
Hope it's ok if I waffle on here for a sec...but if I had the money I would love to set up a small-ish high-intensity exclusion orchard (similar to the one shown on the Daleys news..) and put in very low level pop up sprinklers thru' the whole thing (the reason being that they would wet 'all' of the area/soil from the top down - allowing it to 'all' become useful/active for root systems etc - not like drippers and microsprayers, which I find concentrate roots in a small area..?) If u are going to pay that much money to enclose - then every bit should be productive..

I would grow it as a food forest (for sensitive and/or F.Fly prone fruit trees) and have windbreak material over the top (or even 50%, or less, shade cloth) and have useful ground covers (N fixing and moisture preserving) and recycle as much freebie organics as I could get my hands on...I would introduce bob-tail (and other) lizards (frogs?) and guinea fowl and have a hive (like that guy). I would also have my wastewater treatment system/septic leaches or whatever, sub-surface, going in there too.
I would attempt to grow mushrooms, or other fungi, on dead logs etc, in shady areas, and introduce other soil fungi that convert decaying wood.
I might even consider novel ways of introducing warmth when required...via solar panels or such (haven't thought about that much yet..) Maybe even a few deck chairs to lay around in and enjoy the lush greenery and NO bush flies! yay!? ;-)

Ah for the Lotto life!? :)

Geraldton is a mass of huge poly-tunnels for a good reason (and some of WA's best growing soils are located here - believe it or not!? check a soil geography book..) I can honestly see this becoming the norm for food growing in the future (in WA at least) - especially given the market for fruit n veg that's not loaded with chemicals. Meat may even end up being 'grown' in vats (via tissue culture) in 100yrs from now maybe..!? Why not - wild caught seafood is a "luxury" these days...But - water is also just too precious to have it simply evaporating now. It is not 'sustainable' to be watering a garden with water derived from de-sal plants either - I don't feel, anyway..?

Like kert - we all get 'antsy' about certain things - my gripe is water. How can my $ compete with mining companies (for eg) who use drinking water all over their roads just for dust suppression and such? (just an example - not a political statement) There are huge fights going on (here at least) over water resources from the aquifiers - between mining and agriculture (bigger than the escaped GM canola genes currently causing a ruckus here too...)

Long winded guys I know - but my point is that permaculture, organics, gardening science, etc - all need to keep evolving with the rest of the world - we need to keep asking questions and studying (in science and in practice) even good growing land is a precious resource these days. Some of WA's richest growing land is now under subdivisions...meaning that good 'growing land' may be relegated to 'marginal land' (think Wanneroo and the Swan Valley eg..)

Bill M's work is quite old now...has permaculture grown/evolved beyond this yet?

amanda says...
Ah....do u mean it will redistribute water so that new roots will grow into dry soil? (or redistribute through the tree itself..?)
Now that I have dug up so many of my trees - I have found that root systems have hardly grown on the dripper-only watered trees (they had 4 x 4L one's around them) Surprised some hadn't blown over actually...
I thought it might be because the water tends not to 'spread out' in sand - rather goes it goes straight down..?

It's interesting that u mention weed competition though - as I find my trees with 'weeds' growing under them - have a lot more worm activity there and the soil stays cooler and moister...(which is a good thing in this climate, I feel)

Sigh! I don't know - it all gets very confusing (for me) sometimes :-O

Jantina says...
Hi Amanda, I'd love you to come and visit too, maybe one day!Most of life is a trade off, particularly if you want to be producing your own food and even if you find perfect growing conditions for most of what you want to grow, your family may not want to live there!
Peter Bennett (home grown in Adelaide) has a book about organic growing (written about '78 but all still relevent stuff) and he has a chapter on growing vegies in desert type situations with pictures of what he did with a community. I have loaned my copy to someone (who?) maybe you can get a copy from the library.
Bill Mollison (to my knowledge) went on to collaborate with communities and co-author books on various things to do with edibles, eg one on fermented foods for humans.
David Holmgren has moved on to the bigger picture including sustainable living as resources dwindle in the energy sector.
The principles themselves are timeless but I hear what you say, you want specific help with the sandy soil and water deficiency problems.
There is a very interesting DVD out called Garbage Warrior. It's by an American architech who specializes in building houses in the Mexican (I think )desert from mostly garbage (stuff other people throw away) that are self sufficient in power and water. The water is caught water not from aquifers.
The Americans wouldn't let him build them there so he had to go to Mexico. Very interesting video.

Jantina says...
Ah yes,good old hindsight, without it I would have made even more of the same mistakes over and over again!
Amanda one of the things permaculture encourages is starting close to the house eg herb and vegie gardens close to the kitchen door, and then working your way out gradually as these get established
to the things that don't need constant attention. Unfortunately I didn't "get" that myself and made my life harder in the process. Now I have my most commonly used herbs just by the door and it's a snap to get parsley for the soup on a winters night.

Peter says...
(off permaculture topic about Brads comment about surface roots)
This is now a good opportunity to ask around about others experience with "training roots to get deeper":
I have seen people installing drainage pipes around the tree (no soil in there). They then water by filling the pipe. I guess what they want to achieve is that more roots grow towards the pipe opening about 1m deep in the ground - away from hot soil temperatures and evaporation. The trees look good. Unfortunately this is set up in hope it works and surface watering is also done - so no way to be sure the pipes have a positive effect. But maybe someone has done it more systematically and can tell about their experiences.
This somehow links to Kerts comment, that it is sufficient to provide only a certain percentage of the root system with water, the rest of the root system will recover and spread during more favourable environment conditions.

kert says...
I won't try to compete with the spirituality of CCS. my observation of Negev desert horticulture convinced me you can make a buck in 200mm rainfall areas if you are really smart. What's more you can even beat the world and export to Europe at a competetive price.

kert says...
Oh, Rats you really are mad at me ,poor pet. Evidence of what? That Israeli produce is everywhere in Europe? ;that I was in the Negev ? That it does not rain in the Negev? I won't respond to you further as I have decided not to get into petty slanging matches. I'm far too high- minded.(And it's clearly a mismatch)

Rastus says...
Now why would I be mad at you Kert, I simply ask you, as you so often ask of others, to provide some evidence to back your claim. RE: a buck can be made in 200mm rainfall etc.
As per usual, you expect of others but can't/won't do the same your self.

ringelstrumpf says...
About Amanda's waffle:
It's about resilience as well. If you do this high tech things, then there is lots which can go wrong. All technologies fail sooner or later. If you garden more traditionally, you have failures but in most cases you still have something.
The worst thing about the high tech approach is that all these growers depend on the delivery of something, i.e plastic for their tunnels. If this something doesn't come they won't grow much. The more high tech your approach is the more dependent you are on stuff brought from outside.
Remember always that we are three days away from chaos (this was about a disruption of the delivery chain of our supermarkets).

Charles cant spell says...
Amanda - Acacias grow up there as they are a low rainfall, nitorgen fixing pinoneer species. They are there trying to fix the soil but I imagine they are not managing to take the next step of sucessfully hosting a canopy species.

Again I dont want to sound defeatist, and its the same in Perth but yes unless you have an esablished continous nutrient/mulch/biomass cycling forrest type setup you will be bringing in biomas lossing 90% to the leaching and enviromental harshness and not improving at any speed.

What we would do in Perth is to ramp up the clay levels initially, to hold moisture and build up the soil, then the leaching process slows dramatically, then you can start adding some fine organics and lots of course mulch type organics and hopefully the bugs and trees have enough moisture because of the clay and your watering and they have organic food, and the humus/soil formation and terraforming might even go exponential.

While you have that sand as the soil basis thought you are pushing shit through the soil so to speak.

I am sure Kert is right you could turn a buck, and you know how as you state, appropriate species, as for 200mm rainfall, most of those date and fig farms in the desert are running on ancient aquifers propping up man made oasis's aren't they. Possibly but not really sustainable and not growing there on the rainfall levels.

I love being called spiritual :) as and farm boy and chemical engineer its not something i hear, or feel very often :)

Brad says...
Uhoh kert now I'm starting to agree with rastus. Where's your idea that people who preach permaculture don't succeed growing? Evidence of that. I have seen many counterexamples

Same for your unsubstantiated claim biomass nitrofixing can't work enough for modern food crops. The air is 79% nitrogen. smaller legume trees / shrubs can provide heaps : if you have the space adjacent to your fruit trees

amanda says...
Yes - the grams of nitrogen fixed can be quantified, quite easily. Azolla can actually fix a great deal of N. I will check some links and edit this in a bit, to add.
For me, I also think that bulky carbon sources may be pretty handy too...is it lignin I am thinking of? Anyway - the Russians (often touted as the fathers of soil science) know lots about this...

Kert - sometimes it depends on whether folks want a 'trophy' tree or not also...my gist, with permaculture, is that there is always "something" to harvest...it may not be massive amounts (that may go to waste) but enough so that you have fresh food (and variety) every day...(and diversity in what u eat is one of the healthiest ways to eat - ask a dietician)

Permaculture will not feed the world...but that was never it's agenda to start with - nor has it claimed that (as far as I know...?)

Love ya work CCS - you have confirmed exactly what I have been struggling with recently - on a physical and ethical level :)
You are absolutely right - the canopy species doesn't have much of a chance. The bush here is called Rum Jungle...don't ask me why tho' !?

Edit: a great link to read kert:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kV0nirc8MiEJ:aciar.gov.au/files/node/10169/MN136%2520Part%25201.pdf+nitrogen+fixing+plants+quantified&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjLVuAf0HXxiW45vLT4WH7CFrmX3C2nY5NsQwTfq4aMqM1ZSTWHD-I1gG-WTBrtrMZEjtuiSlj_AxN0MMrxV4bqN2xUJVK-sjmh-rXS7XnzXn9E6JmnxroP5_lnThDD9aO05cdy&sig=AHIEtbT5yU7EGrctfrBojr27K1a1JwQgOA

Much of what permaculture draws it's knowledge from seems to be based in very logical (and tested) science at times..? eg: claying of sandy, water repellant soils has been used and known about for many years now - and is a well established agricultural practice (I can provide the proof if required ;)
The permie studying local soil fungi is not novel - the Ag dept is already on to these things - they are looking to bacteria to do this job also.
I think Jantina? mentioned that CSIRO is limited, in it's research, by it's funding sources. The Ag dept's are mainly dealing with commercial aspects of food production.

I guess this is why I am very passionate about all of the 'disciplines' coming together - I am convinced this is the way to go. CCS is a chemical engineer - he has knowledge I could never learn. Many of you have amazing practical knowledge and hands-on experience of the vagaries of 'growing'. I am/was a keen microbiologist. Who/what else do we have here? A huge resource - that's what..

(PPS Ringlestrumpf - love your point there :) and Brad - u are a mystery man here..? U make very salient/commonsense points..do u work at the Ag dept or something?)

amanda says...
Well...to look at things from another perspective completely...world food production is not able to meet demand. Australia actually plays a large role in "feeding the world"...weather conditions of late have proven just how fragile that food chain is. If u and I are finding food expensive lately - then there are many much worse off than us I am sure.

Personally, I find TV shows like Backyard Blitz etc - very scary in the way that they promote sterile, "no/low maintenance" (and non productive) use of land and water. Just my thoughts tho'.

kert says...
it is commonly misconceived that food is cheap in Oz; it ain't so . Food was better quality in the EU and cheaper. No recent experience for the USA but years ago I thought the same about their food. Having a supermarket duopoly does not help.

Julie says...
Sorry, still off-topic on the price of food: I treated myself to ONE banana the other day. It cost me $2.45! I know it's the floods, but still a shock.

MaryT says...
Permaculture is just a brand name. I tend to shop generic - sometimes those products are superior. The main benefit of being a Permie is being able to call yourself one, so many do. I have done all the courses and have not found one thing that is unique in their methods, no different from the generic wisdom. I would have done better to ask my grandfather, if he was alive. However, if you are starting from zero, then you may benefit in doing a course; or log on to this forum.

amanda says...
I just got the Water Corp brochure and the WA statistics in it were pretty scary..? until 1974 there was an average of 338 gigs litres going into our dams - now it's just 57.7 gL ...and in 2010 only 13 gL...ouch!

One of my favourite angles in permaculture is the 'chop and drop' one...it makes sense but it's also so labour saving too...!? It's sad to see people burning all their autumn leaves - or carting green waste to the tip (and then replacing that biomass with just fertilisers, in some cases)
Being bound to english-style gardens has not really done Aust many favours has it? :-( I don't know if I could handle being a neat-freak in my garden - seems like an incredibly time consuming and counterproductive way to go?
I am very keen to build myself a bio-char thingo - for the branches that I can't mulch etc.

MaryT says...
Jantina I am interested in growing food and growing up in a concrete jungle (Hong Kong) did not prepare me well so I first did a home gardener's course at TAFE, then studied organic gardening, no dig, permaculture, then biodynamics. I am not saying they don't work, but I worked hard at learning by reading and doing and finding facts so yes, like someone else said, I found that a lot of Permaculture stuff is general, basic and have been said before. So it is repackaged stuff but not unique or worthless in itself. That's why I said if someone knows nothing it's worth doing a course, as I did. When I did Permaculture there was a bit of cult feeling to it and I must say I found it off putting. I distrust Gurus. For the same reason I left a school of yoga - I still practice yoga but was uncomfortable about kowtowing to a guru. Again, yoga is ancient and there are many brands...

amanda says...
Julie - we do seem to be losing a lot of information don't we..? Back when my folks were young everybody grew backyard food...they had to, but also, it seemed to be just a normal way of life also..? (mind u - so was the 1/4 acre block too..)
Many of the younger generation don't even know what some of the fruit n veg are it seems? (when I go thru the checkout) - let alone have any confidence to grow them (yet..) I wonder if it may be a dying art - given space, time and water restrictions..? There are some very different challenges these days.

I don't have much experience with permaculture - so I could be wrong - but the impression I get is of treating your garden as a "whole organism". It's very much what made me think when it came to setting this garden up. It's not perfect but that would be unrealistic. And some things are outside my direct control like CCS mentioned - the overall weather and climate - F.fly etc - without some serious money being spent on an exclusion set-up (here at least) as there are no other answers as yet.

But I see some positive signs of some of the permaculture ethos filtering thru eg: people seem to be less inclined to 'wholesale' kill the beneficial insects these days (we have hornet mud nests all around our patio and it's ok - they don't bother us and we don't bother them - and they are great at caterpiller control)
People are more interested in plants that attract 'bennies' also.

Just one small example - I'd bet there's more?
The real challenge for permaculture may fitting/adapting it into modern suburban life...and I am sceptical that it can be done in a postage stamp size backyard..?

Maybe the 'whole organism' should now refer to our whole neighbourhood instead.?

amanda says...
True Julie - I guess gardens will end up going more vertical over time? Some of those super 66 and asbestos fences in Perth could benefit from a make over/cover over!? :)

kert says...
"Those that can do,those that can't teach"

kert says...
Those who reach out to quotations from others to bolster their position only diminish themselves. (Kert della Kert , 2011)

Brad says...
you probably want more expert local advice. The only reason I can think of to water past the fine roots (that do the drinking) is if there's water table/salinity issues and an occasional flush is helpful. but yes, its 'wasted'

if your sand won't hold water, then every time the tree gets thirsty, you need to provide some. humus rich soils need less watering. evaporation rates from BOM aren't good enough. you have microclimates (e.g. west or east side of a hill? west side gets afternoon sun more intensely) and soils too. shade from other plants. wind exposure. your own observations are more useful. you may recall a thread where jimmy talked about more regularly watering his pots with smaller amounts, rather than let water soak out the bottom. its the same idea.

and remember, drippers are only good if roots are in the area.

amanda says...
U know - it's interesting this concept of not watering the entire root zone around the tree...I am not sure I am happy with it actually?
Mainly because summer comes along and the new foraging roots will die, in the then dry soil. For trees producing fruit crops this loss of feeding roots (in production time) would surely be quite significant..? (in sandy-loams)

The aim of the game is to get a good healthy mass of feeding roots (and soil) - to support the fruit I would have thought?

Anyway - I have tried both here (sandy loam tho') and can say with 100% certainty that drippers are nowhere near as effective as microsprayers...in sandy loam...even the 'moat' method produces better results. Hand watering seems to be best of all...but who has the time...

Sub surface retic has certainly helped my fruit trees thru' some pretty serious heatwaves. Might be useful as a 'back-up' system when 38+ oC forecast for days/weeks on end perhaps..? It doesn't take much water at all - sub surface - to heat-wave "proof" your trees. I know from our home-usage, spread over >300 sqm - it's low.

Kert - it's interesting to note that there is a local expert who has actually worked in countries like Israel who uses microsprayers - not drippers - I saw. Personally I don't see the point of using only a 1/4 or more, of the soils bounty? (and also when I have paid out lotsa bucks on fert's all around too..?) Potassium is also in the top-soil, for eg. In sand - I am very sceptical of drippers now.

I will take some pics this week of my Rottnest Island T-trees - dripper versus moat watered (the dedicated moat watered trees have not been watered for 2yrs+ now - the dripper-watered one's are still need summer 'weaning'....are still smaller even now @ 4yrs old each, and have a 30% higher mortality rate..) It's very interesting.

I have also noticed that my trees that have a groundcover around them - fare better than those with nothing and/or 'dead' mulch. I have measured the temp of the soil of both - and the soil temp of those with a living ground cover is (statistically-significantly) cooler than either woodchip/straw mulch, or nothing.
That is not surprising tho' - when u think about it. It's always cooler under dense green transpiring shade...it's also good conditions for the soil microorganisms.
Rev also mentioned that there is more than enough fert's given to our fruit trees to support a living ground cover too. I tend to agree. If it's an N2 fixer - even better.
I have experimented with every kind of mulch there is, for sandy loam, and retic methods too.
Haven't quite come to a conclusion yet - but I am becoming sceptical of the popular conventions myself ;-)

(This all relates to larger backyards and lots of trees BTW..)

Anyway - I am with Speedy here - the soil fungi are very important in the big picture - and very much ignored it seems.

amanda says...
Well - we have now had 20mm of rain last 2 days so I checked the depth of infiltration around my trees with the shade cloth (on the ground) and the water had gone about 3cm deeper than the trees without the shade cloth (only 1cm depth) The water didn't penetrate more than 0.5cm on the trees with the pig poo/straw mulch.
The soil under the wood chipped/manure trees is still highly water repellant.

Anyway - just for interest for hot, dry, sandy climates maybe...
I am thinking of a combination of mulch (thin) and shade cloth on top, with microsprayers (and topping up the mulch as needed/broken down over summer) or just using liquid fert's and/or dynamic lifter over summer.
(Until I win Lotto and can afford my exclusion orchard of course! :)

AdamBau says...
I agree that most permaculture enthusists are prone to marketing courses but what about for those of us who actually want to learn permaculture? I live in Australia and was so thankful I got to take this fermentation workshop https://www.milkwood.net/course/fermentation-workshop-160131/ with people who really knew their stuff, "pros" as they say...

Ya gotta start somewhere...and before you know it, you won't need to take those courses, you might even have to teach them!