Problems with White Sapotes *Pics included*

J starts with ...
I recently put my reinecke commercial, Ortega and vista white sapotes in the ground (last two weeks of autumn). All plants are over 1 and 1/2 years of age. The vista is fine but the reinecke and Ortega seem to be dropping leaves and developing black spots and what seems to be rust (in the reineckes case) all over their leaves. I've taken some photo's of the ortega attached to this Post.

Is this normal for melbourne winter? I've spraying the trees with copper sulphate and yates anti root rot and I've given them two applications of seasol since planting. Is there something I'm doing wrong, or is it normal for white sapotes to drop leaves and get spots/rust during melbourne winter?

My other white sapotes in pots (2 pikes, Wilson and 1 ortega) seem to be doing fine, but another younger (3rd) pike in a pot is dropping leaves at an alarming rate. It's the only white sapote I got from daleys while all others are from Vic/SA. I've placed it under cover so frost and wind can't get to it, any other suggestions for this younger pike?

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2	Picture: 3
Picture: 4

Jason says...
+ Very tough tree they are and by far the easiest of all the "rare" fruits to grow in Victoria, maybe even more so than Avocado but that might be debatable, might also be debatable to call Avocado rare down here anymore :)

Pike never grows very big it just kinda hangs on the ground a bit messy like this one I have

http://img.skitch.com/20100510-g52dexj5n65nxgte48iimms26r.jpg

amanda says...
Hi J, the leaves are very yellow looking for a sapote? (or is it the camera settings..) what is the pH of the soil?

Jason says...
I think they look fine, just a little yellow but not in any danger of dying or anything like that, they are only young trees and only just been put in the ground. All these things are stressing.

If you give them some general citrus fertiliser in the spring to wake them up I bet they will grow really well this Spring/Summer. Just treat them like a citrus because they are heavy feeders. I wouldn't be adding any weird stuff to them, just either Chicken manual or normal chemical fertiliser, give them a season in the ground and see what they look like then. You probably want the longest leaves on most varieties to be about 20cm in length, that's a safe size to aim for, slowly build up the fertiliser until they are pushing leaves like that

Jason says...
Wow that's a lot of pictures to digest :). Yep they all like fine. Each variety do look a bit different and a bit different colour. Ortega is always more yellow than most of the others, you don't have a Chris? but for example it's one that looks half dead all the time, it's just the way it is.

I find Vista and Pike to be almost identical fruit. But the Vista tree is a bit more upright. Rienecke is a very upright growing tree, it's will probably be your best looking tree so put that in the display position in the garden :) it has a really nice colour to it, but mine needs more fertilizer to flower and fruit for some reason compared to the other varieties. It also usually takes a long time to flower and fruit. Mine's 9 years old and only just cropping for the first time now. It's also the first year I've gone heavy with chemical fertiliser on it. Coincidence or not I don't know :).

My Pike made only tiny un fertilised fruit for many years and then once I got an Ortega and Vernon to pollinate it, it's been fruiting well ever since. Vernon will fruit almost as soon as you graft it on.

I'd plant them all now, since in the ground is always better than a pot but it you want to wait until late August or the start of September that's fine. But Sapotes are capable of slow growth even in Victorias Winter so anytime is ok (mine are still flowering and growing fruit right now).

They really do enjoy lots of food, I've found without much fertiliser they mostly only flower in late Spring or early Summer, if you get a bit more serious on them they will flower in Autumn once it starts raining and Spring once it warms up and maybe even almost year round. But to me it seems as it flowering can be triggered from either warming/longer days and rain after a dry period.

I used to only use Chicken manure on them but where I am it's not enough. So I've been using chemicals now, alternating between a general fruit tree mix and then a 20% nitrogen mix, about each 1.5-2 months Spring through late Summer. I'll get you the names of them next time I get some bags if you want, they are just from Pivot, nothing fancy. I wasn't really keen on it at first hence the chicken manure :) but really everythings doing so much better now and I'm not going to live forever, so I decided better to have chemical fertiliser and fruits than no fruits at all and I don't seem to have killed any Kangaroos let alone Frogs :) so I'm cool with it for now. I will fertilise them again in the last week of August with the 20% nitrogen mix (well maybe on the bigger trees only since it'll still be raining then and the more mild stuff on the smaller trees) to try and push a heavy growth flush through Spring and earlier Summer before the ground drys out.

I've also got a seedling to flower for the first time this year also, it's about 8-9 years old. If you want to just concentrate on one plant first so you can have an example plant with dark green leaves of a certain size and see how it grows then you will have a reference for the others so you can match them to that and not go tooo far with your nitrogen, but back in the chicken manure days I used to put.... 10 kgs? on a each sapote when they were like 5 feet tall and never had a problem, that wouldn't be the case in warmer climates but down here you need more juice on them to force things along. I'll try and remember to get a picture of my Reinecke tree tomorrow

I forgot something.. my Pike tree does tend to look ratty and loose most of it's leaves before it grows it's main growth flush, for that particular tree, that's in about the middle of Summer

amanda says...
PS Jason, just went out to have a look at mine and look what I found!! How long do they take to grow and ripen do u think? (a bit warmer here than Vic)

Pictures - Click to enlarge
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amanda says...
Hi J, I think lemon gold might be ok where u are? Mine get blasted with cold southerlies, salt, hot easterlies etc and are so tough! It can get down to 4-6 oC o/night here and they don't lose any condition at all. Lemon gold also self pollinating (as in my pic) I am really pleased with them - they give me no trouble at all. My easiest fruit tree by far.
Can't understand why the fruit not so popular in the shops yet...

PS - i have't found my trees to be needy in any way with respect to NPK or trace elements (and my soil very deficient) so Jason very likely on the money - they probably have the winter blues...

J says...
Hey jason

Thanks again for all this info! It's gold! Looking forward to finding out what fertilizer your using.

I'll try and get a hold of some vernons and if I can't get any, then I may twist your arm :) Its interesting you mentioned vernon's as increasing your fruit size, but I was told vernon's only fruit and flower every alternating year. Interesting. Either way it's a variety I don't have and I'd like to have it if its going to benefit my other trees.

In regards to 40 degree summer days, how did your white sapotes go when we had that nasty spell two summers ago with 4 days in a row of 40 degree days? I water my trees often in the summer, and I'm concerned a bad heat wave might knock them for six.

amanda says...
FYI - these guys copped a real hiding on the weekend - 115km/hr winds off the ocean and pelting rain...all the fruit n flowers fine! Does this mean it could be a fruiting windbreak tree perhaps?

J - my trees had a week of 38 - 45 oC days this summer and they were fine. We have had 1.7 - 5 oC for 2 weeks this winter and they fine with that too - still flowering and fruiting.

My ultimate fruit tree :-)

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Jason says...
Here's some links to various tastes test from Tom A and Shawn on the cloudforest

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/302.html

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/16171.html

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/201070689.html

I think there should be at least one more somewhere but I can't find it

Vernon and Subelle are only average on all the taste tests, I think Vernon is just as easy to graft as anything else, I haven't had one fail using the Whip and tongue graft and I'm no expert grafter. The thing about Vernon is that it flowers quickly and is a very good pollinator and that's important to have with sapotes. It's a must have for that reason alone.

Rainbow is the one I want and it's in Australia, but it's proven not so easy to get hold of, but yes aside from not having Rainbow, which may be better, at least a better tree. Chris is in another realm compared to all the others I've tasted. There's are locally selected varieties in New Zealand called WikiWoo and Wookie that supposed to be very good and related to Subelle, I have seedlings of the NZ varieties just getting geared up to flower now after 8 years or so.

There's two main types of fruit with sapotes the caramel type and those with Lemonish flavour (which most people prefer), Vernon, Pike, Ortega and Vista are all your standard Caramel type fruit but Pike has a little bit more of an annoying aftertaste than most (not everyone can taste it), but it also makes lots of fruit so it's something to weigh up. My Reinecke Commercial tree is still flowering now, it made a couple of flowers in Autumn 2004 but didn't fruit then. This year is the first year it's making fruit (planted in 1999 I think) and it's making hugeeee amounts of fruit. It might never do this again, who knows but I'll enjoy it while the going is good.

I forgot to reply about sapotes in the heat, yes the 40+ degree days in Vic with the Northerly winds, they don't like it at all. You have to soak them the night before or all your new growth and leading shoots will look like the blow torch hit them, that happens to my trees most years. I try to get water into the sapotes first on those days since they are more sensitive to it that anything else I grow. Old growth is fine, only the new stuff gets floppy and then burnt off so it's not the end of th e world

Jason says...
J, If you go here

http://www.incitecpivotfertilisers.com.au/locate_supplier.cfm

You can find a shop that sells it, I still haven't got around to seeing the name on the 3:2:1 stuff I'm using but I reckon the 20% nitrogen one I alternated it with on the more hungry kind of plants during summer was this one.

Pasture Booster
http://www.incitecpivotfertilisers.com.au/product_search.cfm?ProductId=636&action=viewproduct

There are banana specials also with around 50% nitrogen but that's getting too heavy for most plants, I'm not sure which of the two gave me the extra sapote success with all the extra heavy flowering I've had since but they did want something extra.

I haven't seen Suebelle in Australia, but Vernon isn't too far away from having fruit on it at all times, it flowers for most of the year. Most of the others either flower once in Spring, once in Autumn. Mine are starting to blur the line now and flower from Autumn right through to Spring. Talking about Cherimoyas I'm going to try some things to get them growing better this year now that I seem to have Sapotes and Avocados doing well. I've been holding off on fertilising the Avocados because I don't want them to flower until it's warmer and they are starting to push them up now

kert says...
Treegrowers are not that easy to deal with. I had 2 years' of attempts to buy Fino from them and each time they gave a feeble excuse for non delivery;the last excuse was "too much rain".

Jason says...
I've never heard of a sapote being grafted onto anything other than sapote, are you sure they are grafted onto something else?. It would look a lot different under the graft if it's not sapote

Jantina says...
Hi amanda, just went and checked my small neem tree (kept in my glasshouse) and the trunk looks much "barkier" (no such word methinks) than the sapote.It's only a young tree so the bark could change as it matures.

J says...
Kert & Amanda: I won't lie to both of you by saying that I didn't laugh at both your posts. However, one of the great things about daleys forum is there is virtually no trolling like other forums around the net. and thats my dr.Phil moment of the day..

Kert: That is worrying information about treegrowers. It was indicated to me that they had lost some cherimoya grafts to root rot but I didn't think that was two years in a row. Either way thanks for the heads up.

Jason: I spoke to someone who sells white sapotes and was advised he currently has a small Suebelle, so there is atleast 1 suebelle in australia! Also, I'd love to swap/buy some of the trees you graft, jason. Please shoot me an email at jmubaraki@hotmail.com if you are interested.

Jason says...
Fino, is probably the best Cherimoya available in Australia, Birdwood might have Pierce also? it's supposed to be good. I went to a huge amount of trouble to actually collect seed in Mexico and Sean did the same in Peru/Ecuador, I don't think either of us ended up with a plant any better than Fino :p, the trees I collected seed from in Mexico were fantastic in Mexico, mango beaters, but haven't turned out so well here. I need to move one tree that came from a fruit that was 2.0kgs in size, since it's in a bad spot and it certainly has the right genetics to be worth keeping :). I'm having a bit of trouble with kangaroos jumping on stuff and eating things lately so I need to make some taller wire guards too.

The Subelle sounds like a good find but I'm sure Rainbow is the one to really chase after. My Vista is flowering a bit better now days but I doubt it's ever going to fruit like Pike does. However it's true Glowinski's Vista tree does make heaps of fruit, I've seen it and it's a good tree. He pulled out his Pike because it was small bendy unimpressive and and struggling looking, but that's just how Pike looks :).

But really there is a huge difference in taste between these green skinned normal sugary kind of sapotes and the flavour champions of the species. I've only tasted two fruit from my Chris tree but it was substantially better than any other sapote I've tasted, I expect Rainbow to be something like that but with a huge fruit. My Reinecke is going to have a lot of fruit ripe this summer, I've never tasted it before but I hope it's better than most (should be).

J, I'm still months and months away from having sapotes grafted ready to leae home since I've only planted the rootstock from this years crop and they are only just comming up, but hopefully I'll be able to graft them by Summer. I have about 100 seed planted, but I still have at least 50 seeds starting to go dry that I just can't fit into more pots or have any room to keep, they need a home asap. I'm going to soak them in some water tomorrow but after I do that they are going to start germinating so let me know if you want some

John Mc says...
Hey Jason, I'm keen to take some seeds off you. Always keen to pay or trade or whatever. I haven't had the opportunity to taste a sapote of any var as yet, so I'm keen to get my grafted ones fruiting asap. I have two large seedlings, one Reinecke and a Ortego.

kert says...
Good idea ,J. I'll start by asking Amanda to give her views on "magnetised water" ;it's kinda illuminating.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
The SA Rare Fruit Society have Rainbow and Suebelle listed amongst their varieties, although trying to get hold of scion wood from them is like asking for the Hope Diamond, even if you're a member, unless you live in Adelaide.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Yes good idea Jason, Jantina may be the way to go. Hope she can put me on her waiting list!!

kert says...
The SA people must have got Rainbow
from somewhere ;maybe they would unbend sufficiently to share that info.
On another topic > we experienced a frost event of minus 2.5 C and hereis what happened to unprotected ,young plants
No damage - cherimoya ,white sapote grumichama, jaboticaba feijoa, ice cream bean,green sapote
Minor browning of leaves -mango, jackfruit.
major browning of leaves -marula
Dead- papaya.

Jason says...
Amanda if the food and weather is right pretty much all of them will flower together. I had a lot of sapotes that had done nothing in years even seedlings all flower this last Autumn, they have been flowering from then until now and are still going.

Kert I have an old wholesale catalogue from birdwood and they used to carry.

Reineckie, Golden Globe, Lemon Gold, McDill, Smathers, Candy, Denzler, Mac's Golden, Dade, Ortego(a), and Vernon

I've never heard of Candy or Denzler. I have all the others in various stages of goodness or disaster apart from McDill which is supposed to be a huge fruit. I know Daleys has never stocked Rainbow at least since the late 90s when I started watching. Someone may have imported it themselves from California.

Here's a picture of it by the way :) in case anyone see's it around

http://www.rarefruit-sa.org.au/Espalier/Fruit/Rainbow.jpg

amanda says...
Jason - I have to ask - but what are u planning on doing with all these sapotes you have? Are u researching them?

Jason says...
J, if a normal Sapote is an Apple, Chris is a Mango. That's about the difference.

Amanda, I like growing Sapotes :) they are easy to grow and make lots of food, one day I'll find a actual use for the fruit but until then rubbing the smashed fruit through the grass to collect the seeds is quite soothing to the mind also :0

When I decide what are the very best varieties I'm going to do some deliberate cross's between them also. Chris is a great fruit but a sickly kind of tree so that needs to cross with another almost great fruit that's a strong grower in cool climates for starters.

I wont be doing any government research :p but I might try leaving some seeds on the ground to see what happens to the rats one day

Jason says...
I think most of the plant breeders name plants after the inspiring girls that got away during life, not themselves :). But perhaps it's best to name the first one after your wife so you don't get stabbed :p

amanda says...
Sorry to butt in J - but Jason - have a look at Phil's (@Tyalgum) "Chris" in his edibles page - it's lovely looking.

Phil - I want to transplant my two L'golds - what was the root system like on yours when u dug it up?
I have 35L tree bags and the bigger tree is 3 or 4 yrs old and 1.5 tall?
I am so pleased to see u have been successful moving yours.

What's your drainage like there Phil?
Is there much distance between you and J? I know I am no expert here but I don't think the colour of J's are 'right' somehow..?

(edit: J - in the first pics u posted the younger leave seem to be getting paler - for what it's worth I think it's hungry for some nitrogen? - and seasol is very low in this...your other ones are putting out new growth which would indicate is actually not too cold...)

Hey Jason - hope your love has a better name than "Denzler"..??? :)

Jason says...
Phil the mad transplanter seems to have good success moving these!:), who dares me to move my 6 foot lemon gold sapote that's never going to do well where it is?

Amanda, it's probably best to not be reminded of these things too often but I do have some good exotics names there if I feel up for it :p. I already unofficially (so far) named an Apple "Grandpa Smith" lol, only because it's a cross between granny smith and golden delicious but I think it's a better apple than either of those

J says...
Sorry to ask again, guys - but any advice on whats happening with my Mammoth Feijoa described in my last post above?

J says...
Phil, thats strange. I have a Duffy too and thats one of the feijoa's that hasn't lost a leaf. It's my mammoth thats dropping them like crazy.

J says...
We've had an extremely wet winter here near melbourne, amanda. So I think watering some more would be over kill.

My trees including the mammoth were doing well up and growing until two weeks ago when the mammoth started dropping leaves. Like I said all I have done is given each tree a handful of dynamic lifter and some seasol. I spray white oil and Pyrethrum every three weeks or so to keep the bugs away. and thats about it. Curious.

kert says...
Vernon has been fruiting on older,lower branches already,a much appreciated winter crop. As far as McDill goes it's OK but no one will write poetry about it. Golden Nugget is much under appreciated as it has intense flavour and a rich buttery taste. The tree is very upright with little branching and may not be the same as the USA version .

kert says...
I bought it at Birdwood Nursery when it was selling a much more diverse range; they now concentrate on commercial varieties.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Kert can you give a rundown on what was available in the casimiroa line through Birdwood in '92? There are a couple of nurseries up this way who are still wholesale customers, I'd like to track down a couple of elusive cultivars. Thanks, Phil.

Jason says...
No they are not the same atleast they aren't supposed to be, I have lots of Macs Golden wood if anyone want's to collect that one once it's a bit warmer. I have both Golden Globe and Lemon Gold, those are the two that are supposed to be confused in Australia, but both of my trees are planted where it's too dry for them to do anything so I'm going to have to move them if I'm ever going to find out what is what.

How about we all make a list of what varieties we all have still alive and can potentially make/swap wood at some stage?.

I have in all these in some various stages between super health and near death :P (all are savable if I choose too though) although some I don't even water let alone feed since they haven't wanted to perform for me, they are all plants that come from various places that were having a dodgy year at the time and so are on the "I might re-graft them to a decent rootstock at some stage list".

Anyway varieties that I have alive are.

Pike (healthy), Vernon(healthy x 2), Mac's Golden(healthy graft on a seedling), Reinecke Commercial(healthy), Ortega(healthy), Vista(healthy), Chris(OK), Hawaii Supreme (bit sick/small), Golden globe(bit sick/small), Lemon Gold(OK), Dade(abandoned), Smathers(OK/small x 2)is a pure Casimiroa tetrameria wolly leaf).

I know Jantina has at least one variety I don't and that's Blumenthal.

Again the only one I really want now that I don't have is Rainbow :)

Amanda the soil here is red loam with iron gravel and a decent amount of clay in it pretty much no organic matter, Ph about 5.5. Glowinski's sapotes do well also in Melbourne in a typical near the coast sand with black dirt on top

Jason says...
I've only had a couple of fruit from Macs Golden and I didn't think it was so crash hot myself. I think any variety will grow in Victoria but it seems they may taste different depending on where they are grown and what kind of soil etc.

Vernon seems to make an almost infinite amount of flowers and not much fruit for me, oddly. But it's an excellent pollinator since it's pretty much always flowering. Pike is reliable IF you have a pollinator otherwise it simply wont make anything other than marble sized fruit. With a pollinator is makes huge fruit and heaps of them, not the best tasting sapote but at least average so that's a keeper considering you know you are going to get a lot of fruit. I'll recap on my thoughts of the ones you have that I have.

Vista similar to pike, bit prettier tree, might taste slightly better also but doesn't seem to fruit as heavily for me.

Ortega has very small fruit but again a good pollinator, it doesn't flower all the time like Vernon though, both these two's leaves are usually more yellow in colour than the other trees but can be fixed with more nitrogen.

Reinecke Commercial is an amazing looking tree, VERY dark green with bright red new growth but I had to wait sooooo many years for it to fruit. Still I believe it will be one of the best sapote's I have, only a few more months now and I'll find out :). It's supposed to be perhaps the most yellow (almost orange skin).

As for Lemon gold and Golden Globe at least one of them or perhaps both are an excellent fruit :) (whatever one is the real Californian Lemon Gold)

kert says...
It ought not be hard to differentiate Lemon Gold from Golden Globe,Jason. Lemon Gold is a semperflores variety and is in flower now ;Golden Globe is without flowers at present. My repertoire is Golden Globe ,Lemon Gold still small, Pike , McDill and Vernon, If someone does manage to find a source of well regarded sapotes I would be v. interested.

Jantina says...
Hi Jason, I also have a Denzler (and a labelled Lemon Gold)but as you saw they are still babies planted last summer. Hopefully this year will see a blast of growth.

kert says...
Jason, Blumenthal is another name for Hawaiian Supreme. a marketing type must have renamed it ;its proper name ought to be Hawaiian Just OK.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Thanks for the list Kert, no doubt I'll come across the odd relic in some forgotten nursery, seems the way to go with the hard to find varieties.

Jason says...
J, I'd try them in part shade given that they seem to have no problem flowering all winter when there is not much light at the best of times around here.

There's got to be a fruiting lemon gold in Victoria somewhere, but I don't know where :). I really better move my tree soon to see what it can do.

Kert, I didn't know Hawaii was the same plant as blumenthal, it seems between all of us in this thread we have most of the varieties that were brought into the country still going, so that's something good :)

kert says...
In the current Daley's plant list there is a white sapote that is described merely as "grafted" What can that be? Presumebly the others are marcotted .

Jantina says...
Jason and Phil, have put in my request for Rainbow grafting material with the Rarefruit Society. Wish me luck!

Jantina says...
If I get some I'm sure that a piece will gradually wend it's way to you J.

J says...
Thanks Jantina. I would love to have a rare white sapote growing in my backyard. However I'll probably have to get someone to graft that piece for me as I (as of yet) don't know how to graft.

Jantina, you've mentioned you have Lucuma seeds. If that is correct, I would love to buy some off you. Would that be possible? I've read that it grows quite well here in the Melbourne, and its difficult to get in nurseries.

J says...
Thanks heaps, Jantina. How frost tolerant are they? Also, if you do end up getting a lucuma plant for me please feel free to email me at jmubaraki@hotmail.com. Thanks again for the kindness.

And I might have to ask Jason to graft me a rainbow white sapote as well!

J says...
Hey Jantina, that's great news about the rainbow cuttings!! Congratulations!! When do you get to take them? Now if Jason could volunteer his grafting services.. hint hint :)

Lucuma sounds very promising. I've got good drainage here and not too many frosts. Look forward to hearing from you when you have a spare seedling.

J says...
Cool. As you probably realised I'm in belgrave (upwey to be more precise) too. Love the area. Don't love the possums. My partner is of dutch heritage and she refers to her grandma as Oma too.

Jantina, feel free to drop me an email when you are in the area. I'd be happy to show you around my (rapidly expanding) garden.

An update on my white sapotes (which was the reason I started this thread): they seem to have stabilised. Not getting any worse, which is good. Very good!

Jantina says...
Haha kert good one. The donor lives in Adelaide and I have already asked him to let me know if there is anything he is particularly after, so if he does and I don't personally have it I will put out the call, thanks.

J says...
Thats good to hear, Sean! 6 years is a long time but sounds like it will be worth it. Where did you get the tree from originally?

Phil@Tyalgum says...
Lemon Gold is a good pollinator if you ever decide to get another variety to match up with it. My Ortego is also flowering profusely but not setting any fruit, am using it to hand pollinate Pike, Dade and Vista as I'm not sure what distance the pollen will be transported naturally - ants seem to be the only insects attracted to the flowers.

J says...
hey jason, I ended up getting some bags of pivot fertilizer this weekend. I got some nitrophoska blue (Nitrogen 10%)for all the other trees (recommended for avocados, lemons etc on the pivot website) and Pivot 400 (nitrogen 20%) for the white sapotes.

I've just put the Two vernons I picked up recently into the ground and The pikes in the pots will go into the ground next.

Thanks again to everyone for their input in this thread. Very very helpful.

amanda says...
Hi Phil - only ants attracted to the flowers on mine as well...interesting.

Phil@Tyalgum says...
I've been hand pollinating just in case - Ortego produces so many flowers that I can afford to pinch a few to distribute around to the other trees, although it's quite a fiddly job.

Jason says...
Is there a commercial sapote orchid anywhere in the world? the only place you can find them even in Mexico is up some dark alley in the most unknown of street markets, even then you have to especially ask them to bring you the fruit the next week

J says...
They grow em in Californy and sell at the farmers markets there along with cherimoya. That's about the extent of it.

I was reading an interesting article about white sapote and its lack of popularity in this day and age. Number 1 problem that prevented it from catching on with the farmers is the transportation and bruising of fruit. 2nd reason why it isn't as popular as it should be is because it never caught on in Asia. Cherimoya, Sapodilla and Guava (amongst others)became common in asia over the last 90 years. White sapote (due to the transportation problems) was never properly introduced to the Asian public and therefore never caught on like the other south american fruits that were introduced.

The reason its proved difficult to reintroduce white sapote as a viable crop in western markets, unlike say cherimoya, sapodilla and guava is that there's no Ethnic attachment to it from the American/Australian- Asians/Indians.

amanda says...
One's I get superb! but $5 EACH... (I eat them that day or next)

kert says...
Who's paying a dollar a seed?

Russell says...
Hello there. Hope you don't mind my putting in a question here.
I'm wondering when I should be expecting my white sapote to flower? It's been in the ground three years at this location after being transplanted as a one-year-old from a previous garden. I think it's a lemon gold. It's a beautifully healthy tree that I've had to prune back twice because of its prolific growth. I've cut right back on fertilizer but it's unstoppable. It's growing in sand a few hundred metres from the beach in a sub-tropical zone. I've given it organic matter and it's well-mulched.

Russell says...
Quite simple, really. It was huge - nearly 5 metres tall and its spread was over the roof of the house and well over the neighbour's fence. I live in a suburban block and don't have the luxury of wide open spaces. It's still 3 metres tall and so I haven't savaged it. I'm looking for someone to give me constructive input, thanks

Russell says...
Thanks Amanda. Ocean Shores is in far northern NSW. Warm winters could have something to do with it. I'm not overly concerned. I'll be patient and enjoy the beautiful tree

Jason says...
Just saw this after a search up too, posted by a Tasmanian

"white sapotes are very hardy - there is a massive one growing here in our Botanical Gardens, it fruits really thickly."

Jason says...
Usually when they start droping the whole tree is ripe (if it all flowered at once), You can wait until they start to slightly give on the tree but it's risky if you only have the one fruit because it might separate from the stem then you are in all sorts of trouble because you really need to leave the stem attached of it wont soften well.

But if the fruit is huge then chances are it's ripe, how huge are we talking? baseball? large orange?

This picture is fruit from my Pike tree 5 years ago maybe? this is about as big as Pike get and most varieties are smaller than that

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1

Jason says...
BJ, I'd say a large granny smith sized Vernon is done :). It will soften sliiightly before it drops from the tree but you will risk losing it to ground or birds or whatever grubs you have up there :). I think it will ripen off the tree if it's that size now without any problem. Clip the stem and keep it somewhere thats at air temp like in a box or something. They don't ripen in the fridge or in a heated room (shrivel up in both cases usually). Don't wait until it's super soft to eat it either, just until... well it takes some practice but they taste better before they turn mushy but you can't eat them when they are firm either

J says...
Has any on tried to order some of the new zealand varieties of white sapote from any of the nurseries in new zealand?

Exactly what is the quarantine law and procedure like with getting plants from New zealand to Australia. Is it difficult, costly or lengthy? Has any one had any experience with this?

J says...
I think one of my vernon white sapotes is flowering. Do these pics look like flowers?

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2	Picture: 3
Picture: 4

J says...
Thanks, Jason. That's great news! I was worried the dandenong ranges might have been a bit too cold for my white sapotes to fruit, which would have made my investment in 10 trees quite a dud, but see some flowers on atleast 1 of them makes me happy. Now they just have to form fruit and the other 9 trees need to do the same and I'll be laughing!

Jason says...
So much for letting the rain ease the fertiliser in :P. I thought it would rain for an hour not 24 hours

Jason says...
How much did you put on them? little tree only needs a little bit, maybe 100-200 grams or something spread over 4 feet diameter?. I'm putting over the course of a year I guess 2 kilos around a 10 year old sapote but a 10 year old sapote could have a trunk a foot thick if you get onto a good one. I like to sprinkle it around so it looks like the fertiliser they stick on top of commercially grown potted plants. Kind of a just right looking amount. I put the same amount on both Sapotes and Citrus but I guess it depends how deficient the soil is to begin with. I actually used a whole bag last night and this morning, now I just have a bag of 46%? nitrogen left so I've been going verrry easy with that around the trees that missed out on the other stuff, that stuff I'd only be putting a couple spoon fulls on smaller plants, maybe 200 grams on decent size trees just to see what happens before I get too crazy. I wait a month after putting the fertiliser and watch what the leaves do, I haven't burnt anything yet but the leaves come out overly large and a bit wobbly looking if I put too much, if the leaves still look fine, then I put more.

I've never ever been able to make Cherimoya's grow like they should so I'm experimenting on my "White" tree this year since I don't like the fruit on that variety. It's got HEAPS of pasture booster + extra nitrogen right now, maybe not enough to kill it if things go wrong but should be enough to make it grow properly if that's what it needed

Jason says...
Yep, most of my Cherimoyas are leafless and just pushing new buds now, a couple still have some maybe 50% leaves but mostly they are almost leafless. Pity about the burn on the new growth but they will probably come back booming, I bet the sapotes will at least. With my Cheirmoyas I've only been able to get an average of a foot growth on them per year and Glowinskis tree in Melbourne looked SO much stronger than mine and growing several feet per year when I saw it so I'm doing something not as well as he has with his. They've never had anywhere near as large leaves as they should either, the leaves should be like the size of a medium sized food plate so fertiliser is my first step, I've tried adding lime in the past but it didn't prove much.

I've never put fertiliser on my strawberry/yellow Guava, I was actually thinking the other day that I should since it's about 8 feet tall but totally yellow and not happy looking, I'll have to remember to go easy on it

Jason says...
Sounds like a plan Wayne I'll try anything :). They don't normally flower here until early December. I actually just pulled the last fruit off one a couple days ago. The tree I'm experimenting on is a "White" which is not a very good fruit as far as Cherimoyas go it's 15 feet tall but 10 years old so I consider that a bit of a failure since I know they can grow much better than that in similar cool climates

j says...
So it seems one of my ortega's has a small bunch of flowers at the centre. Surprised to see anything on it considering its only 3 feet tall.

j says...
Well that's good to hear, John. The chris I got from daleys a month or so ago is sort of just sitting in the ground. Not getting any worse but not doing much either. I think it needs to get warmer.

j says...
Actually only my chris and one of my pikes (both from daleys) is kinda doing nothing. Just sitting there in the ground, but the rest of my trees are popping out leaves like crazy, especially my reinecke commercial. I picked that tree up about 8 months ago for 25$ and it seemed like nursery reject stock. And now its doing good.

Yeah we are getting plenty of rains in Vic as well. It's a good thing and I'm not complaining.

J says...
Update:
The daleys Chris seems to be growing now and so does the daleys pike, which is good news. The other pikes are growing well and my reinecke commerical has gone sort of mental, sprouting new growth like crazy.
I'm also the proud owner of 2 golden globes, 1 hawain supreme and 1 lemon gold. Got a couple more Wilsons as well for right at the back of the property where it's the coldest. Now all I need is a Suebelle and a Rainbow and my white sapote collection will be complete. Hopefully in a few years time I'm gonna have white saotes coming out of my ears and I won't know what to do with them. White sapote Jam maybe?

J says...
Hey jantina
A suebelle would be great. I'm pretty sure some one in the rare fruit SA branch would have one. Suebelle is meant to be an everbearer and its fruit are yellow. Yellow white sapote fruit all year round sounds good to me.
Hows the ruby red pepino going? Your American paw paw seedling is doing well. Thanks again for that!

J says...
16 leaves.. that's more leaves than any of mine! Thought my ruby reds look quite healthy, melbourne just hasn't had enough heat for growth. I'm going to be getting a few more grafted asimina's as well so both us can't have our own little pawpaw forests!

Back to white sapote discussion, if you could locate a suebelle, that would be greatly appreciated. I believe Jason doesn't have a suebelle in his collection either.

J says...
Sweet!

J says...
Sounds like we're getting close to getting some Rainbow and Suebelle grafts going (close being in six months or so, but that's great!)

Yep Jason, that pretty much describes my reinecke commercial. I would love to see some pics of the fruit! It's interesting because my reinecke was being treated like reject stock form the nursery I got it from. 15$. Bargain. So if reineck commericial can fruit in vic, then by that logic Chris, Golden Globe, Lemon gold and hawian supreme should do so as well. We'll see.

Only 1 of my vernons have flowered and is setting fruit. My ortega had a few flowers then they dropped off. So not sure whats going on there but the tree is healthy and growing and really that's all I'm concerned about now.

Jason, I've got a friend of friend who loves white sapote and spent sometime in a hippie commune in NSW growing some white sapotes. He is adamant that they can't grow and fruit here (here being the dandenongs) on a regular basis. I've told him about my vernon (he believes its a seasonal fluke) and I've told him about your and Jujube4sales tree's that are doing so well but he reckons it's a coastal effect and I'm too far away and high up in the hills for the white sapote to crop properly. I guess I'll just have to wait and prove him wrong.

Rhys says...
The funny thing is that we have a Vernon and Ortega growing really well down in Korumburra (Ortega - 3m x 3m, Vernon - 2m x 2m), and the Ortega has been fruiting extremely heavily - it had 120 fruit on it last year (apple size), so it surprises me to hear it isn't a heavy fruiter. I thought maybe it is doing so well because it is right near the Vernon (which only flowers every two years).

Rhys says...
Can't really say about that. The Ortega seems to flower almost all the time, the Vernon flowers only in spring every second year. The Ortega is extremely vigorous, Vernon a lot slower. I guess the key would be the shape of the fruit - they are pretty different to each other. But don't have photos to show you. Both taste pretty nice.

The soil is a rich mountain loam, 1000mm rainfall - terrific fruit country really

Jason says...
I had a good close up look at Vernon and Ortega the other day, I guess the average fruit on Vernon is rounder shaped and the tree is less droopy than Ortega but they are fairly similar trees as far as white sapotes go

Diana says...
Great to hear about the lack of fruit fly- I hope that applies to Qld fruit fly. Is your tree in its third year and about head height?

Diana.

Rhys says...
Well I guess I'll post some photos next time I'm up there, that might help you to identify them Jason! These aren't our biggest trees - the largest Sapote is a 5 metre Golden Globe - has a single fruit on it this year (first ever).

Thanks,

Rhys.

BJ says...
J, I have a Vernon. Purchased from Bunnings, so a Birdwood tree. Flowers and fruits almost continuously, unless its disturbed (I transplanted it about three months ago, so no flowers until now, and its pushing quite a few).

I doubt Daley's get theirs from Birdwood, as Birdwood seem to always do 6L bags, whereas Daley's are a 175mm standard.

Jason says...
J, mine Vernons are originally from Birdwood. They don't fruit year round, in fact until recently they used to set very little fruit, I would say have two distinct crops, Summer and Winter here.. But they do flower almost year round year after year after year, they are very heavy with the flowering, so much that it can at times set back the tree in health even without fruiting, there's only small periods where it's resting from flowering cycles.

Vernon is very famous for flowering straight away after grafting, mine do this.

I have one tree that I grafted that is half seedling half Vernon, that tree has a heavy crop of Vernon fruit now that the seedling has flowered, by far the most Vernons I've had on a tree (like 20 times more).

I can't see any possible way a Vernon would flower once each two years, none of the Californians in the cloudforest have ever said they do that. But strange things do happen with sapotes depending on the climate they are in and they are all a bit different due to random seedling rootstock variability.

I have fruit on both Vernon and Ortega (both Birdwood trees) at the moment so when they are ripe in a few months I can get some good pictures and we can solve this little mystery for sure.

P.S. Most white sapotes are capable of flowering twice per year if not almost year round, the only one I'm 100% sure can not that I have is Pike. It only flowers in Spring/late Spring. Reinecke commercial seems like it only flowers in Autumn so far, but it's only just getting really going at 10 years of age :S, its a long wait that one

J says...
Thanks for the reply, Jason. I think differing rootstock might be the answer. Do you know what rootstock birdwood & daleys use for their white sapotes?

Another question of Fertiliser application: Applying Potash on white sapotes, does this like citrus, help the white sapote to flower and set fruit?

EDIT:
Rhys, thanks for the reply. I got my reinecke commerical from Poyntons nursery as well and it was the same story, sickly neglected tree that is now bigger & growing faster than all my other sapotes. I believe Jason has stated in the past that CHRIS is pretty much a sickly looking tree no matter what you do. My chris is chugging along nicely. Lets see how it does this winter (its first winter in the dandenongs).

Jason says...
Also about Chris, since it's a pretty weak grower but tastes so good I plan to isolate some flowers next time it flowers and pollinate it with something much more vigorous and grow out those seedlings.

Hopefully I can get some of the flavour of Chris into a better growing tree. I'll probably use pollen from my most vigorous seedling depending on how it goes for taste when I finally get to try it in May/June

Jason says...
Amanda if you have room sure!. I don't think the selected varieties are any better than seedlings with most things but especially White Sapotes and Cherimoyas which have had next to no breeding or selection.

I use mostly Pike as rootstock since it's a vigorous grower and has large seeds it's also the tree that gives me by far the most fruit so those are the seeds I have most of. If I wanted to get fancy I'd graft whatever scion I had onto a seedling of that variety just to be sure it was a close match.

I'm just seeing a video of my garden from 2003 :p gees pretty funny there's nothing more than a couple feet high, now it's getting pretty close to being jungle and so many things have moved that I didn't even remember moving or things have died that I didn't even remember having and my Holden HQ still ran :).

Since I'm in this retro stuff, I've added a couple of pictures, it wont mean much to anyone apart from Jantina who's seen them lately but when I make a new video you'll see a pretty big difference, the Macadamia is a H2 seedlings (which is now fruiting), the Sapote is my Rienecke Commercial 27-11-2003 was the date for both pictures

Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1	Picture: 2

Jason says...
They seem to grow just as well in either sand or clay. I'd be quite happy to grow all seedling everything to be honest if I could handle going 15 years without playing silly buggers with 50 fruit from grafted trees here and there it would in the long term make a better garden having all seedlings.

In the last 8? years most of what I've planted has been seedlings since I already got some grafted trees in the beginning to keep me interested while I waited. Some sapotes are going to be biased towards a good male flower and not fruit as much (but you do need those to get good pollination). Only one of the 3 seedlings I have flowering so far is a really good female flower, the other two are more on the male side but still will set a decent amount of fruit.

I think in your climate you might be able to get a sapote from germination to flowers in 5-6 years, the fastest one I've had was 7 years I think, I guess it's not much different from the time it takes for a grafted one to really get going but with seedlings you would want to plant 3 or 4 to be sure one is going to be a really heavy cropper

Jason says...
They seem pretty reliable with fruiting age to me, all the seedlings I've planted have flowered within 10 years. It seems just size related rather than how many growing seasons because the youngest one I had flower was the largest tree just because it was a vigorous one in a good spot. All Glowinski's three trees are grafted, I don't think he's grown out a seedling but a few people on the cloudforest have and all of those have had decent fruit. One that Katie Wong? grow was good enough to be propagated around, I think it's just called Katy's seedling. There's also one seedling Axel found growing randomly somewhere, that's one of the better sapotes which he's called Santa Cruz. Tom A has grown out a few seedlings which all turned out to be good but nothing out of the ordinary so far.

What I'm really hanging out for is to get a seedling Avocado to fruit, then I'll feel like I've made it somewhere with seedlings, everyone says that's a disaster waiting to happen but most of the seedlings I've seen have turned out good, only one 50 year old tree that flowers like crazy has never fruited (yet)

Jason says...
I've heard you can make air layers *just* but they are supposed to be fairly weak rooted compared to seedlings. I think cuttings would be very difficult. Given how simple they are to graft that's probably still the easiest way to go about duplicating one even with the issue of the rootstock sometimes not matching up quite right. Time to fruit from a layer/cutting would still be the same as grafted plant

amanda says...
hey jason - when u get a minute would u mind posting the link to this cloud cafe site about casimoroa's please? I would love to have a read - and it might save u having to repeat yourself here? :)
I am interested in reading about this male and female flowering thing...thanks!

Jason says...
Amanda most of the sapote talk was years ago before the current forum. Some of the archives from the early years 1999-2002? were lost in a server disaster but a lot of years are still there, the lost ones are still in my head (hopefully) :p

The archives are here

http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/archive.html

Most of the people there are in Northern California/Southern Victoria/North Island New Zealand type cool climates but also a few from warmer places

J says...
my 2nd Reinecke commercial (from daleys) which is foot tall appears to be flowering(!). Not sure what to make of this, seems really random as the other reinecke is 2+ metres tall now and is growing well but no flowers. Isn't this variety meant to fruit after 5+ years?

adamus says...
Does anyone know which is the best variety for Cold climates?. We're a bit colder than Upwey, and a lot higher up,(1100 metres.). I know they can be grown here, but I suspect it depends on the variety.
Any ideas.?

Jason says...
Pike wont have any proper seeded fruit unless either Ortega or perhaps Vernon is flowering at the same time. Pike isn't self fertile at all. Once you can get them all flowering at once you'll get heaps of fruit but it does take a few years.

Adamus, those 4 J mentioned are all reliable in Victoria with Pike and Vista being the heaviest and most reliable croppers of those, but you'll need either Ortega or Vernon to pollinate them. Vista and Pikes fruit is very similar with Pike being just a little larger but the Pike tree is a drooping form and Vista is more upright.

J, Vernon's spring flowering crop can be ripe anytime from about... May till sometime in Spring. Vista and Pike are a bit earlier than that usually, maybe April-May. You'll see when the fruit on Vernon is ripe it will start to go a bit more yellow in colour and look ?shiny?

Jason says...
Sure you can come around sometime, you are going to see Jantina at some point right? she's just up the road a bit

Jason says...
Ok, I think November is a nicer time for plant expeditions, October is still a bit cold around these parts for anything to be looking very happy

J says...
:) :) No probs, I will arrange (hopefully) to come down in november sometime.

Back to adamus's query: Wilson is another variety that is meant to do really well in colder climates. It's meant to fruit really well in new zealand. I've got three of em and they're small right now, so I'll let you know how they are going a in a couple of years.

Jason says...
I just leave mine do what they are going to do Peter, can't see the point in pruning an essentially wild tree?

adamus says...
Thanks J for this. I used to live on Sylvan road in Monbulk, and know the winter well. If a Sapote can grow there, I'll have no probs. Cheers.

Dave says...
Adam, I'm living not far from where you use to live. The sapote do great here in a choice sunny position, winter they slow a bit but at the moment for instance they are shooting new buds all the time. My Ortego has put on over 4ft the last 6 months and is only a new tree. The new growth is red tinged (particularly Reinecke variety) like an avocado's new growth, which looks great imo. No fruit from them yet as they are young, but I know several people up in the hills who get bumper crops and they are colder than me in climate. Actually they have been snowed on in Olinda, and they managed to get through that even, in a good position though with larger trees behind it to stop the frost or snow landing on it.
J, are you going to Petty's Orchard open day next week? I might see you there if you are, give us a bell if interested.

J says...
Dave, I went to pettys orchard last year (where funnily enough I got my wilsons white sapotes & some pepinos) but this year Plantmark (a garden & plant whole saler) is having an open day for the general public on the same day. The prices of fertiliser, sprays, gardening stuff in general is MUCH, MUCH cheaper than at places like bunnings. I'm talking about 30%-50% off. Substantial savings, so I might have to give Pettys a miss. Again, we should catch up soon as you live around the corner. I want to know what ur secret is to getting your ortego growing 4 feet(!) this year. Mine are doing well (1 foot growth) but 4 feet. Daaaammmn! :)

Adamus, you should check out perrys in SA. I know they currently have some rather large ortega's for sale right now. They are pricy but its worth it.

John Mc says...
One of my 4 YO seedlings has thrown off half of it's mature leaves. I couldn't believe it. It looked like the cockatoos had a go at it. Do you think it might be getting ready to flower at 4 yo?
The other 4yo seedling next to it hasn't lost a single leaf.